Hey, everyone. So making an Item Tier List is something I've wanted to try for a while now. Honestly, I don't really think that items can be put into tiers the same way that gods can, so this is really more of a fun, food-for-thought kind of project.
My reasoning behind the placement of each item is, "How well is the item performing its role within the current meta?". I feel that any item can be built to some degree of success given the appropriate conditions, but some items simply perform more effectively in their given role than others.
At the very least, I hope this will provide an opportunity to consider the effectiveness of different items within the current meta. I'm sure not everyone will agree with my rankings, so I'd be interested in hearing the reasoning behind differing opinions.
Sleeper items: Fail-Not feels pretty great on hunters with good abilities, in combination with Malicious Deathbringer you get lots of CDR and 45% crit.
It's 50%. On ADCs with cancer skills as Cupid with Fields Of Love, it's a great idea, but the problem is that I have only 5 slots to build, 2 are filled with no AS at all. Ability hunters tend to not have AS steroids, so you need lifesteal, pen and AS on the last 3 slots. That's why I guess fail is not that high.
Hey DV-8, so I already talk to you a lot about items, and I do more theory-crafting and stuff with you than pretty much anyone else, so what I say probably won't be a surprise.
In the SF Discord, Cheklist talked about (and you really liked) the idea of an evolving tier list, rather than first establishing what each ranking means. I'm used to establishing those ranks (e.g. OP, balanced, weak) before I do anything, as my mind works more analytically and I like having defined categories to help me sort my thoughts. That said, what I discuss below will be more to identify things that feel particularly strong or weak and any additional thoughts I have on them, and I'll leave the average item alone.
Particularly Strong Items
Atalanta's Bow: I put this here, but not sure if I truly feel this is significantly above average. Funny enough, I don't build this item that often, but I feel the stats are a bit bloated...an item that has decent power, good AS, some lifesteal, and 20% crit chance...that's a lot of stats. And I can't believe HR nerfed it to this state, what were they thinking with the previous version slated for the start of S9???
Bulwark of Hope: Went from barely being used to being used on pretty much all tanks, overtaking Talisman of Energy and other magical protection items. I think an item that provides 80 protection + often over 600 health (w/ passive) is too much. At the same time, continuing to buff and buff and buff magical items (add power, add more pen) might be why this happened. I would like to see a nerf to this...drop the prots from 80 to maybe 70? Maybe drop the base health by 50.
Divine Ruin / Spear of the Magus / Spear of Desolation (double/triple flat pen builds): they not only boosted power on these items, but added (reverted) more flat pen. For squishies that don't build protections and aren't under the influence of protection auras e.g. Heartward, their base magical prots at level 20 is 48. I know double-flat-pen is very common right now, but I've even heard of all 3 being used together. That would allow mages to basically deal true damage to those squishies, while still getting good functionality from these items (CDR, lifesteal, anti-heal).
Mages (pausing a second to talk about state of mages): Honestly, I think it's best when even the full-damage roles should often be getting at least one item that's more utility-based than pure damage. It allows for more variety. That said, gods taking advantage of stats like movement speed can make things infuriating, so I'm glad Doom Orb, for example, isn't currently in the meta. I don't know exactly where I'm going with this, but I'd like to see us move away from that double-flat-pen thing.
Envenomed Deathbringer: I'll admit I was extremely happy when I saw this combo. I always loved Poisoned Star but it was often hard to fit it into builds. Combine a core crit item (DB) with a really nice situational passive (actually both PS and Malice), and you've got a winner. Of all the new Glyph items, I feel this, the Jotunn's upgrades, and Nimble Rod of Tahuti (situational but obviously amazing for mage ADCs) are exceptionally strong.
Hydra's Lament: Situationally used esp for gods that attack cancel, but I had forgotten it had received a buff, now providing 10% pen. I think many might feel this isn't that OP, but the stats feel bloated. It's good that it's only used by select gods, so maybe that puts this in a good spot.
Jotunn's Ferocity: Sort of like Hydra's (goes hand in hand in ways), the Glyph's bonus damage makes it really nice for 1v1. When you add extra things onto an item that's already strong and often a core item, makes it tough to balance. Jotunn's being 2,200 gold to start is probably the biggest problem though.
Relic Dagger: Gets a nerf tomorrow, reducing the relic CDR effect from 40s to 30s. That said, I think it's still a bit too cheap for the stats it brings. Should probably be 2,000 gold.
Runeforged Hammer: I'm just mentioning it here since it's so commonly used right now and considered OP, but I think this might only need minor adjustments. Maybe drop the power down by 5, HP5 by 5.
Serrated Edge: Not super OP, but still has bloated stats. Probably tough to balance 20% pen items sometimes.
Items That Feel Weak
This category will include those that I might have used and didn't like, or know that the perception of them is weak right now.
Animosity: Honestly, sort of glad this item is in its current state. When it's stronger, it's just too good for specific gods. I think this item needs a rework.
Diamond Arrow: This starter upgrade just feels like the passive kicks in too situationally to be worth it, and it's been that way since the beginning. Think it needs a rework of the passive and when it applies.
Gem of Isolation: Very few take really good advantage of this item, but maybe that's a good thing. It was very frustrating when it had 2 seconds on the passive effect.
Lono's Mask / Rangda's Mask: I think these items should just be removed from the game. Situational use, sure, and Lono's is probably in a good spot, but Rangda's just needs to go IMO.
Rage: I tried using it as often as I could fit it in during S8. Now, with Ata adding crit chance, all crit items having a base 20% or higher, DB being boosted to 30%...this item just doesn't fit in anymore. Items w/ AS are just preferred at this point, and the power feels a bit too low. I don't think the price should decrease...crit items should inherently be expensive, but this needs something.
Tainted Steel: I think this is the only starter item without any base sustain of any kind. It needs some HP5 at least, otherwise, it's doesn't fit the starter mold.
Quick word on the Glyphs. I personally feel Glyphs should have been added to items that are a bit outside of core. I think they screwed up choosing items like Deathbringer, Jotunn's Wrath and Rod of Tahuti. Breastplate of Valor is borderline, but probably ok. Heartward Amulet was a good choice, as it wasn't quite as commonly used as other magical prot items. I think the Glyph functionality of the 3 first-mentioned need to be toned down a bit.
Finally, a thought on tier lists after going through this. I think, if I was the one making the list, my preference would be to only have 3 tiers...items that are in a relative state of balance, items that need to be nerfed, and items that probably need to be buffed. What I'd like to see is relative parity of items, which would open up more variety of viable builds.
It's 50%. On ADCs with cancer skills as Cupid with Fields Of Love, it's a great idea, but the problem is that I have only 5 slots to build, 2 are filled with no AS at all. Ability hunters tend to not have AS steroids, so you need lifesteal, pen and AS on the last 3 slots. That's why I guess fail is not that high.
Honestly if we're using Cupid as an example, Fail-Not is perfectly fine on him. Technically, you probably only need 2 attack speed items on him, and his base AS is going to be just fine at level 20. Any of the standard starter upgrades will give you plenty of AS to go with Asi (lifesteal + flat pen + AS) and Silverbranch Bow (pen + AS) or The Executioner (pen + AS), and you should be at 2.3 AS or so at that point. Trans can be used there, or you can go BF.
But yeah, someone like Chiron or Neith would be hurting a bit on AS with that type of build.
Yeah, the whole premise of an Item Tier List is inherently flawed. But, it's a project that I've wanted to manage anyways. It mainly encourages me to keep up with the current state of items which is something I haven't always done in the past.
That being said, I've updated the Tier List with my initial thoughts after considering each item and reading everyone's opinions. I haven't placed any Starter Items/upgrades or the Lono's/Rangda's Masks. I'm also waiting to see how the new Jade Emperor's Crown feels before placing it.
A quick word on some of my placements that I feel many may disagree with:
Emperor's Armor in A+: I feel this item is very overlooked and is very effective for what it does.
Warlock's Staff in A+: Another item that I feel is good, but gets overlooked due to the bloated nature of the flat pen items currently.
Blackthorn Hammer in A: In my opinion, this item is perfectly balanced. Similar to the aforementioned Warlock's Staff, I think it only seems like this item is bad because of the bloated nature of Runeforged Hammer, which in my opinion got a completely unnecessary buff at the beginning of the season.
Hastened Katana in B: It is really difficult for me to justify fitting this item into a build right now. The stats feel very underwhelming and I believe you pay too much for the passive.
You say you feel Emp's Armor is overlooked and effective, and placed it in A+. I can admit, when we've built it, it's been pretty funny (defensive machine gun, offensive molasses). One thing to consider with regard to tier listings...is it something that fits well into a build at a given location, without losing something essential that you'd get in other items? I think, even if it's effective, but delays something core, it might not be worthy of that spot.
Emp is probably most effective in early and mid-game, right? Cuz late-game, tanks have lots of health and prots and can usually tank a ton of hits from a tower or phoenix. And you're probably only going to get it on a Supp, because a Solo isn't going to be picking it up. Would kill their boxing potential.
But let's consider current meta / popular items. Past the starter, first pickups for a Supp will often be Gauntlet of Thebes + any of Sovereignty, Heartward Amulet, Relic Dagger, Breastplate of Valor, etc. While Emp provides health and phys prots similar to something like Sov, is it ever something you'd consider in that spot, and would you be willing to miss out on the CDR or protection auras? Maybe you would, but I'd guess it'd be quite situational.
One interesting thing they could do to Emp to make it more interesting and functional for something outside of just the lane objectives, is a similar effect to jungle objectives. Make them attack faster if they're aggroed on the enemy, make them attack slower if your team has its aggro. They could adjust the % so it wouldn't become OP.
I agree with your point about Blackthorn. Situational CDR, high health, some power and mana, and a switch to MP5 when you're low so you're never out of mana for long...it's still strong, just overshadowed by another item that's seemingly more powerful right now.
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