Mages...squishy, squishy mages. But boy, can they pack a punch. There's a fine line and it's tough for me to rate them, as most mages have a lot of damage potential. I've tried to isolate those gods that, from key abilities, have the best teamfight damage potential.
: Easy to confirm AOE poke damage combined with some control provides incredible damage potential. Only a short range jump makes her somewhat vulnerable, so she should be played on the periphery of a teamfight, but that jump also allows her to get around dangerous obstacles.
: Huge CC abilities, good damage output, and a type of escape by hiding in teammates' shadows. Can really lock down enemies for others to finish.
: His Release The Kraken!
is the sole reason he's in S-Tier. His other abilities have good potential and control, but he can struggle without true mobility, making him a preferred target.
: Her ability to go invisible to catch enemies unaware is very helpful. Her greatest asset, though, is her ult's ability to morph into any other god on the battlefield. This gives her a ton of flexibility in choosing a god whose abilities have the most impact. Can be difficult to play, however.
: As a stance switcher, she has great range in flying stance with some added control. When she switches to ground stance (also a mobility move), she becomes much tankier, perfect for surviving teamfights.
: Possible A-Tier due to his lack of escape. However, his damage potential in a teamfight is massive and easy to apply from distance, which pushes him into S-Tier.
: Good long-range damage potential and a nice dash that makes him a safe pick. Other than comboing 2 abilities to create a stun, he lacks CC.
: Very high burst damage when comboing his Undead Surge
and Corpse Explosion
. Ticking or multi-hit damage via huge AOE ult and his Fleeting Breath
. Combined with Gem of Isolation
, his lack of escape/mobility is more than compensated with his high level of control and damage, as long as he is played properly.
: His mobility/escape is B-Tier (read: none), and he needs to stay still to deal his highest damage, but his damage output is S-Tier
. Has enough CC to make him very effective in 1 v 1 and teamfights as long as he's not focused by the entire enemy team.
: Similar to Loki
, he can disappear for short periods, and his ult easily secures kills (and then gets him to safety). Doesn't have a lot of teamfight potential, but that ult gives him solid kill secure functionality.
: Aphro is a great partner, but her abilities are less effective in a full teamfight. Her healing can be nice, but is easily countered with anti-heal. She has some decent damage output, but she just isn't best-suited for Arena play. Can be very effective with the right teammates, though, and good timing on her Ult can save teammates.
: A reasonably safe pick due to the mitigations and mobility in her 3, she also has fairly good poke, though a bit unpredictable. In the chaos of a teamfight, she can deal some decent damage with her ult, but it also makes her an obvious target.
: Although he has no escape, he has great potential in the middle of a teamfight. Wrap It Up
in particular is a powerful teamfight CC ability that can chain to multiple enemies, and his ult gives him some great control. As long as he positions himself well, he can not only deal good damage, but also provide CC, debuffs, and situational group healing.
: Moderate damage, but her abilities have wide AOE, which work incredibly well with items like Gem of Isolation
to help her control the field. Her stunning
ult in a teamfight can be a game-changer. Although she lacks an escape, she's got a built-in Aegis Amulet
: Has a variety of ways to attack, including an AOE-type ticking nuke and quick basic attacks when built that way. His ult can also save his life AND get him back into the action quickly.
: She outputs good damage, has a good long-range stun, and low cooldowns (her passive gives her an automatic 10% CDR VERY QUICKLY). Her ult can also be a huge healer in a teamfight, and doubles as a zoning tool.
: She's MINE
, but the Fatalis -> Ring nerf hurt her. She still has some amazing damage potential, especially with access to attack speed items overall, but the loss of mobility means she won't be able to box quite as effectively.
: He's got some really good burst and an effective ult if timed properly, but that ult is typically easy to escape. Really needs good team support to be effective, otherwise he can be caught and burst down.
: Decent damage from afar, and high damage potential up close, but lacks a true escape outside of his ult, which makes getting close risky business.
: Borderline S-Tier as she can output some really good damage, and her ult gives her what is basically a 6th person on her team.
: He's got an easy-peasy, fire-and-forget wave-clear and high damage output. With a lack of escape, best to play him on the perimeter.
: Long range poke and good overall damage give him potential. Nerfed a lot to the point I feel he's not the biggest threat anymore.
: Lacks a bit of burst unless comboing on her minions, and her ult, though it can secure kills, is weak but does allow her to get out of some damage for a time.
Morgan Le Fay
: Strong damage and CC potential, but she has no mobility; a smart team will look to shut her down early or make her scared to step up.
: No escape or mobility and his greatest strength is in his ranged basic attacks, guaranteeing he's going to take damage. His greatest function in a teamfight is his ult, but it starts with a very long CD. In this mode, suggest getting some CDR to use his ult more often.
: Parts of her kit are very functional for a teamfight, especially when she can place so many of her sprouts everywhere. She is somewhat safe as she has a dash, and her ult, if she hits it, is great for bunched up enemies, but she usually won't have a nearby wall to confirm her ult connects.
: Although he lacks an escape or even a good dash, his waveclear and teamfight presence keeps him relevant.
: A good escape and an ult that can control are very helpful. Good damage output at range too, but the time it takes to fully cast makes him vulnerable for a bit, which can be dangerous in a teamfight situation. Possible S-Tier.
: Another that might be A-Tier, but she's got a true escape, a strong root, and a crazy burst ult that can chain into multiple kills, though it's difficult to land. Extremely effective if her teammates can keep the enemy's attention.
: With multiple targets in a teamfight, her passive and self-healing will help keep her in a fight and doing good damage. She also has a great - though delayed - Aegis Amulet
: He's got some good damage at safe range, but it can be difficult to connect his shots. He also has an escape, though it has a long CD, so he needs to be careful.
: Poor mobility and his turret is vulnerable, but he can still output a ton of damage, especially with his ult getting a nice speed-buff, allowing him to more easily hit his huge AOE on multiple targets.
: Solid mage kit though nothing really standout. Has some good safety in his escape, and if hit well, his ult can displace enemies and secure kills.
: Unique for a mage. Often built somewhat tanky, and has some great AOE abilities that slowly tick away enemies' health. Even though he doesn't really have burst potential, he is a great teamfighter. Lacks CC and an escape.
: Her healing can be helpful, but if she emphasizes her utility, she loses on long-distance damage. She has absolutely no escape. Common target for the enemy team, and so many anti-healing items can really cut into her support function.
: His teleport can still work on some walls (e.g. the sides), and he can drop it on the floor for temporary relief from damage, but it's not fully an escape. That teleport can also work against his teammates if he drops the enemy when teammates are attacking. Decent damage output, though in this mode, I consider him underpowered.
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You don't need to apply max charges to deal a lot of damage. One or two charges still deals good damage. Couple of questions:
(Obviously, if you can, try to hit the enemy with that initial shield throw as well...and even if the enemy is in range of chain lightning, probably throw it on the shield anyway...that will guarantee a hit, as you don't want to miss a juking enemy.)
Another option is, if you are able, save the shield, and just use your lightning on a reduced minion wave (if you can hit on the last minion alive, that works best). Again, as long as the enemy is in range, you can use that to bounce it to them.
As for the build, don't get caught with a single build...I know you're newer, so maybe a base build is best, but you'll definitely want to learn to build based on your team and the enemy team.
For Joust, I would personally prioritize more pen and more CDR. More CDR means more opportunity to poke. You do get 10% in Spear of Desolation, but I personally prefer more than 10%. If you can fit it in the build, get Chronos' Pendant somewhere.
As for the pen, if you're facing all squishy gods, that build has enough pen, but Divine Ruin is a situational item to counter enemy healing, so you don't always build that. A strong pen item for Zeus is Spear of the Magus, and that's what I'd probably get.
You can go stacking with Book of Thoth, or choose to bypass. I admit, the mana pool is nice. You also don't necessarily need Bancroft's Talon. It's great if you're getting damaged regularly, but if you have them playing very defensively, you won't get the most out of it. If you want lifesteal in those cases, consider Soul Gem for the extra burst (and you should build passive stacks quickly). Pythagorem's Piece can also be nice. Or you can skip lifesteal altogether, freeing up a slot for something else.
So...here are a couple of different build directions you might consider.
Lifesteal: Bancroft's Talon (if getting jumped/damaged a lot), Pythagorem's Piece (team aggression), Soul Gem (extra burst)
Anti-Heal: Divine Ruin (only get this if the enemy has significant healing, otherwise skip it)
Anti-Tank: Obsidian Shard (build this very late, and only if the enemy has 2 tanks with lots of prots), Soul Reaver (great if the enemy has built a lot of health)
Pure Damage: Rod of Tahuti (probably core a bit later, though some people do like building it earlier), Doom Orb (I never get this but the high power and the added MS can be helpful)
Utility / Survivability: Gem of Isolation (maybe a bit less appealing since the nerf, but it's still pretty effective), Book of the Dead (consider only if you picked up Thoth), Ethereal Staff (better if facing high-health enemies), Mantle of Discord (if taking damage from both magical and physical gods), Magi's Cloak (if lots of enemy CC)
(EDIT) I just now realized that the morrigan is also not on the tier list.
Thank you! Glad they have been of help. (Also, thanks for spotting Morrigan isn't in there...Heim isn't because I haven't updated it for the newest patch, so I'll do that at the same time.)
I've thought about a Joust guide for a while. I just don't have the time to dedicate to creating yet ANOTHER guide and trying to keep it updated. I've thought about retiring the Assault guide also, which was my first one.
The Joust map is going to see a significant change in S7 also, and I'm not sure how that's going to play out. If you'd like, I can write up some basics for Joust based on my experience and preference. Let me know if you want me to do that, and give me some specific topics to discuss if you have certain things in mind.
how do you feel about the different blessing starts over t2 boots? I have taken quite a liking in [attacker's blessing] because of how quickly it's stacked in arena. (haven't really tried the others tbh)
Also in your start you say the mage should continue clearing camps, however I have noticed with gods with good early game wave clear (think gods like Kukulkan with a well placed Whirlwind) it can be a big advantage to help blue and red and then go mid (since when red is cleared the wave will clash when you arrive). This allows your team to collapse while the enemy has to deal with the still remaining first wave. the 1-2 seconds your team is later does not provide a lot of minion clear of your opponent from what I have noticed myself.
But for most gods, at this point I prefer skipping any blessings. Usually I'll go Combat Boots or Magic Shoes. If I'm a mage, for example, I'll often rush Chronos' Pendant, so since Lost Artifact is cheap (550 gold), I'll get that and a Mana Potion, and try to stay out as long as possible before backing so I can get a head start on levels and gold. That mana potion can really help, as the mage, for example, can use their clearing ability on the 1st and 3rd camps, making it very quick to get through the buff camps.
I will disagree with Gulf though, and say that even if you get a Blessing, you should (in almost all cases) be able to finish all 6 regular items before the match ends.
As for the start, depending on how quickly they can clear, I VERY strongly suggest all 5 gods just blow through the 3 buff camps ASAP, and all head together to the middle. When the mage leaves early, it slows the other people down with clear (sometimes the basic attacker gets left alone to clear theirs because everyone else is stupid)...AND if they clear before you're in range, the others miss out on some XP/gold. When the mage DOES leave, it's usually after the 1st camp, though. They get their buff and head right to the middle, because they're selfish and say "hey, I got what I needed, see ya."
Depending on how willing people are to use abilities on the camps, you can get through all 3 very, very quickly. I've been in groups where it takes less than 20 seconds, and in others where it takes over 40 (sometimes because people take forever to buy items). The more efficiently you can clear, the quicker everyone gets to the middle, clears the first wave, and immediately pressures the enemy team. THAT should be the goal, IMO.
on blessings I only think that getting Attacker's Blessing or Warrior's Blessing is useful. On putting yourself a little bit behind I haven't really noticed it and unless your getting rofl stomped you will easily finish you build and in a lot of cases reach speed pot amounts of money (only pot not pot+item).
If you ask me it provides you with a early power spike and possible play because with a good poke god or a decent lvl 3 fight you have it stacked before 1500 gold. (normally you reach 12-15 stacks on the buff camps) and we all know how painful 10 flat pen can be that early. (especially if you manage to go back and pick up pen boots on you mage).
warrior's is harder to stack but also fairly easy and honestly 15 protections is pretty decent in the first few moments of the game (and the 40 mana 40 hp and 3 damage reduction is also quite decent).
do have to say I normally prefer a quick back to finish boots in between and this normally hits around 5 and my teammates without blue basing because mana.
But typical Arena comps I see these days are more like 4 squishies and 1 tank, so that can be a good option.
As for Warrior's...well, I don't feel it's worth it at all. Think about where it's mainly used...Conquest Solo. You mostly are looking to clear minions and exchange hits...but sometimes you will try to bully while the minions are still there. The 3 damage mitigation is effective when you've got lots of weaker hits every second (e.g. minions hitting you). But when you're facing multiple gods whose abilities are doing 100+ damage in the first couple of minutes, that damage mitigation is significantly less functional. I wouldn't bother with it, personally.
gotta say I really dislike the 4 squishies 1 tank comp in arena mostly because the tank with more CC (so in most cases a guardian) can dictate the game.
I acctually prefer a 3 squishy (2 mage (or 1 of them full assassin) 1 adc a support/full tank and a bruiser (can be an assassin or more damage focussed warrior/guardian)
also provides you with a slightly better damage spread compared to 2 high AD, 1 low AD 1 low AP and 1 high AP
True, but I don't think any of the blessings are worth the gold; I'd rather start with a tier 2 item instead.
Added back, Yemoja added also, updated for 6.11.
2) Wind Demon quite balanced stats gives atack, atack speed, crit and enough crits for keeping buff upp
3-4) Deathbringer after it crits every second hit and crits are really powerfull
Malice may be taken instead or as next item. Also its cheaper and gives ability to stam non-ult skills. If constantly atack it give like ~50% CDR
Rest depending on class..
also with good crit rate Poisoned Star + Runeforged Hammer gives also good dps and slow\weakness for low price
Against tanks its not so cool but still makes some good dmg.. Or i missing something?
Just going to put in my two cents here...some of what I say will probably align with others. And in this discussion, note that my comments are specifically about building in Arena or other non-Conquest modes.
I do want to clarify that I don't specifically say not to use/buy crit items in the guide (at least to my recollection). In fact, I do list Fail-Not as a functional item (due to its ability to crit-debuff an enemy for your teammates to take advantage).
The main points why you might choose crits or Qin's routes for basic attackers often have to do with the god in question, as well as the enemy comp. For hunters, either route can be okay, but it's often best IMO to go crits when you use a god with an attack speed steroid, like Art or Rama. This allows you to build a bit less into attack speed items, and concentrate on power and pen (since crits scale from your power/basic attack damage). This isn't to say that crits can't have both...Wind Demon and Poisoned Star obviously have AS. I do feel PS is on the weaker side right now, and its passive really makes it less suitable for a teamfight mode.
Cost and Power Curve: But some of the items that work best with crit builds are more expensive. Deathbringer is the most expensive item in the game, Fail-Not isn't cheap, and you'll often see it alongside other items such as Bloodforge (expensive), Wind Demon (moderate), etc. In a shorter mode like Arena, getting your build online as soon as possible is important...you've got a limited time, and being able to optimize your damage potential ASAP is key. Of course, if you get a lot of early kills, you can build more quickly. But note also as Kriega pointed out that crit builds don't really become more effective until you've built at least ~50% crit chance...and that means your build doesn't really come online until like, item 4/5. (And no, you don't want to get WD 2nd and DB 3rd or 4th...your build list doesn't even include
Negatives about crits: Crits, can be partially countered by things such as Geb (passive), Hide of the Nemean Lion, Spectral Armor, and Shield of Thorns. It also relies on RNG (random number generation), which means it's a roll of the dice as to when you get a crit. This isn't a big deal if you're building more than, like, 70%, but sometimes the dice won't roll your way and you'll get 3 hits in a row without crits, for example. Makes it slightly unreliable.
Qin's, on the other hand, focuses more on attack speed to take advantage of the item's passive damage bonus. The more often you hit, the more bonus damage you get. A lot of the items that pair well with Qin's in a high AS build are cheaper...things like Odysseus' Bow, for example, and the O-Bow passive is also functional for teamfights. And of course, you're talking about consistent damage...no random chances here.
Qin's, in addition, is great against tanks that build high health. Often as a hunter, you're going to be in the backline, and your main contact is going to be against their frontline (usually tanks).
One final thing is with regard to Assassins rather than Hunters (since I don't know if you're talking about a specific class). Depending on the assassin, they'll have a stronger function with one or the other. Mercury can crit with his 1. Serqet can crit (up to 3 times) with her 1. Ne Zha has crit activation in his 2, and has (essentially guaranteed) crits in his ult, which makes Deathbringer quite nice. Most other assassins won't build crits.
But some are basic attackers, and those usually want Qin's over crits. Why? In the case of Arachne and Kali, for example, both have quick attack progressions (where at least one of their hits is faster but deals less damage). In those cases, you'll get more Qin's procs in the same amount of time...but if you were to crit on a shorter attack, you'd get reduced damage multipliers and thus lower potential damage. And while Bakasura doesn't have a variable attack progression, his Butcher Blades wants to hit as often as possible, so you want to build high AS, and this goes hand-in-hand with what Qin's wants.
In the end, as I said at the beginning, most of my build direction preference depends on enemy comp and the god I'm using.
High attack speed is to get the most out of Qin's Sais passive.
in most cases looking at late game crit will be better if you need to burst someone down, but qin's takes the top if they are to tanky to be bursted.
Also the crit powerspike is later in a build (the 50% crit mark which a normal crit build hits at item 5) then a qin's build.
Edit: also Qins builds tend to have O-bow which has good teamfight damage.
yeah lower AS makes it more important to acctually hit for your dps
Only on bastet i go to max atack + CDR
if take for example some hunter like Neith or something which first 3-4 items to buy? how much it would cost and lets check dps output
Ninja Tabi+ Wind Demon + Deathbringer
35(+20 with buff) atack speed
45 critrate and +30 critdmg
All this cost 7k gold and enough to start do good dps
for 6700 it could be done with Malice for skill spam
This is enough to start rly do dmg with atacks. Which items could do so much for this price?
As you said critical is very strong against but it's also more expensive and even then you've to rely on RNG.
In most cases crit is built on God's with AS steroids. When you build into crits % you lose on other important starts like power and speed. Also in most cases you want to build death bringer if you build crit for the damage boost
Nowadays with fail not being such a great crit item must ppl build it in non crit build too
I tested Heartseeker + Qin's Sais and trying maxing atack power and atack speed but crit items still looks better.
After building 3 crit items non crit hits are quite rare and with Wind Demon and boots it is decent atack speed. Deathbringer is expencive but rest things are cheap enough. Only one real downside i see is CDR for ult but for normal skills Malice is really cool
Malice is very niche, got an internal CD on it.
Heatseeker is late game item. Like your 6th and DMG increases based on target max HP. Check out obow on a non crit build vs crit.
I tested Heartseeker + Qin's Sais and trying maxing atack power and atack speed but crit items still looks better.
Heartseeker is usually built in high power/penetration builds, e.g. on ability based assassins and hunters.
What you just said made me think of this for some reason. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfRdur8GLBM
Also, since ur not gonna list shoes/crits/lifesteal items, i suggest you put a reference ro your items guide in that specific chapter.
For Thanatos, consider Heartseeker instead of Titan's Bane if enemies aren't tanky and you need a bit of extra umph to kill something without using your ult.
As for Thanatos, yeah that also works. Again, can only provide one example but I can add further comments. Just don't want the comments too be too complex. Good thoughts.
1. Warrior Tabi
2. The Crusher - I don't like Qin's Sais here. Enemies haven't built up health for you to utilize the passive.
3. ( Hide of the Urchin or Mantle of Discord or Magi's Cloak) || Stone Cutting Sword
4. ( Hide of the Urchin or Mantle of Discord or Magi's Cloak) || Stone Cutting Sword
5. Qin's Sais
6. The Executioner
Sell Warrior Tabi for Ninja Tabi
Of course, the defensive item is a flexible pick up (unless it's Hide of the Urchin), but I usually end up picking it 3rd or 4th cuz that's when I see the most focus.
In your opinion, Who has the more functional arachne build for arena? Me or bran? Brans build is in the guide itself, under the items section, physical god builds.
Like I said, SCS is a great item, BUT...it's better if you're facing more physical threat. It's an example build, so I don't account for all things. Also, your build is more forgiving. Earlier protections are just fine, but it means you won't be doing as much damage. It DOES mean you can survive more, even if you make mistakes.
Depending on enemy comp and whatnot, I've gotten Hide of the Urchin as early as 2nd item.
My example build takes better advantage of Qin's passive at an earlier stage, which also pairs well with her passive, Predator. It also requires more awareness (only go in once the most threatening abilities are on CD) and helps if you have good tanks/CC on your team to help set you up.
(Also, I added a burst ability build for her as well.
scs isnt just for physical comps. You'd get it for the +50 power, +10% movement, and most importantly: +30 flat pen (total) which STACKS NICELY with the executioner.
For everything it provides, SCS is probably one of my favorite basic attack items.
I'm only offering example builds so people see different use of items and item orders. None of them are "you should only build this."
1 abiltiy based bruiser assassin
^most balanced comp i can think of
And no, I'm not always offering the best all-purpose build. That's not the purpose I was after. I'm offering a functional build to show how you'd utilize specific items for a specific purpose.
For example, I usually would choose Warrior Tabi on Odin. I would typically go bruiser on Thanatos instead of pure damage. Stuff like that.
In this case I'd also just start Ninja just to more simply set the build up for Qin's. But I still like my original build just fine. It's one example. But I appreciate the feedback and I'll probably adjust and get crusher earlier.
Also, bran, should we involve messages that dont relate to the guide itself to a PM?
Ofc, pestilence offers a fantastic counter to healers as well.
Lifesteal is technically a form of healing, but yes, you're right, and I do always consider Pest to counter lifesteal builds.
Keep in mind also that pestilence is in the tank slash counter item grouping. It was never stated as just a counter item.