So I have played more Smite lately the rustiness isn't going away quickly enough. My mechanical skill has been severely deteriorated even though I played a lot of LoL (however mechanical skill is something that deteriorated there too not long ago, however I'm almost back to were I left of last season with me premade team).
However, that wasn't what I wanted to talk about. While my skill is rusty, I have been enjoying the games I have played. Mostly being Assault and Joust (Arena with friends here). Have done a game of Clash however I still don't really like the game mode. Being a bit reluctant to start solo queuing conquest.
During this time there was a thing I noticed. Items changed a lot. While this was to be expected and in a lot of cases was a good thing it gives me some problems. As people may expect it are mostly building problems. What are the reasons for this well...
First of the biggest thing that changed is the amount of items. I'm talking mostly about the total amount and items per role. While the last thing is a good thing compared to stale S1 item building, the second has become a bit of a problem. There are a lot of items I deem unnecessary. While they do have a function I either find the function worthless or non-noticeable (when it sounds like a noticeable effect). Sometimes items are to niche that only 1 god could use it in only several scenarios that are very rare.
The second reason is off course items changing a lot. This off course brings meta changes in build paths. While not every role being a problem with building or reasoning behind build order others do.
Hunters: Honestly they feel the most straight forward mostly because the
Transcendence 
Asi build is a thing again. And a lot of other kind of build make quite some sense for me even though I don't really like the hammer tree there (which apparently more people had a problem with).Warriors: These guys changed a lot becoming way more defensive or hybrid items. I have no idea if building things like
Titan's Bane or 
Jotunn's Wrath is a thing however seems like 
Void Shield and 
Breastplate of Valor changed them. Also not always sure which relics to get, most cases I get 
Blink Rune and 
Shield of Thorns.Assassins: Uhm, honestly haven't really looked into them yet. However, looking at the coming categories I think I will need some explanations for some paths (even though last time I got
Bakasura in assault I felt like building the full katana tree? didn't do it in the end 
The Executioner was more beneficial than 
Stone Cutting Sword.)Guardians: They went more to an aura support from what I noticed, which is nice. Still not really an idea how to go about building them apart from aura items.
Mages: A class that was extremely straightforward for me in S1. However, with all the changes I have no damn clue anymore. I still know the things about pen etc. However those are just stats. Items give more than stats and I can't fully wrap my head around it. both for basic attacking and mostly ability based.
As end opinion on this I will have to state IMO the amount of items has to go down again, mostly cause I feel certain items are just "existing". Could also be my understanding dropped so much for certain roles that this could be wrong. However, for items per role I feel there are to many options for certain things you want to have, however not enough slots. This ins't a problem I have been experiencing in LoL as severe as in smite.
Well so far for talking about Smite. However with the changes in Smite and my understanding of MOBAs, I feel like I have some work to do. There is still a thing attached to my account called a guide. Which I didn't expect to feel the need for updating for (or at least this soon). At this point in time I'm thinking about slowly updating it. Probably updating it section per section I finish.
However, at this point I'm kinda thinking about what I want to do with the lay-out. I'm considering to make it more like "losely" based tips instead of trying to combine a lot of them. Probably ordering them more to encounter rate or at which point in the game you can encounter them. (think about ordering mistakes by skill leveling, general gameplay, item building, etc.) Mostly because this will fit better with the way I'm planning to update it.
The order I'm going to do it isn't fully clear. Things I have clear is that:
- I will start with updating the introduction, conclusion and other material around the guide. Also tagging outdated articles for the first update.
- Rereading sources I used and change/add onto where necessary. Also gotta read the guide itself again.
- Sorting out/making an order of current articles for editing and start editting them
- Maybe formatting and grammar, however I will probably need help with this (or at least grammar).
- Start adding new stuff that I learned or other people noticed.
Lastly one other thing has changed that I wanted to talk about. You may have guest it it's Smitefire itself.
I'm still happy to be back even though sadly most activity changed to guides and blogs instead of the forums. Which I'm kinda sad about. However it's not a bad thing because feedback etc.
Still one other thing has changed which I feel conflicted about. These are of course the guides and how we handle them nowadays. I do have to say I like the better moderation against the pure troll guides. This certainly has been an improvement.
However, I sometimes fear we're starting to "meta-shape" slightly off-meta builds. Which isn't really what the site was supposed to be. So let me collaborate a bit on this. First of I kind of have an older way of looking at guides and guide building than most other people here. Older peeps that have changed to the new ways will notice this and there are still guides going with that mindset. The new format kinda looks like smites shop screen if you ask me if we're talking build section. (guide is a full different story however this stayed quite the same). Also I'm not looking at the just an example build builds people quick post.
What do I mean by new format is pretty much: A starter build, offensive and defensive options and an example build. Honestly this is a quite confusing one. The only good parts which pretty much all other formats share are example build and the starter build. Don't get me wrong I do get the use of this format and why it is the most common, even though it's a bit to open. That's why either a big item explaination section is needed or multiple scenario example builds.
Honestly looking at some of my preferred format we sorta have 2.
One is the build using the "core format". It's a bit of a harder one to use on some classes or oyu take away some freedom. Pretty much what this includes (without making boots an optional point):
- Start items including consumables and relic options
- First back or early items, think bridge items or using LoL as an example a component you want to get ASAP (optional)
- Core build. aka THE items you got to have/get every game (or most of them). Like The Executioner for adc. In most cases boots are listed here also.
- Defensive and offensive situational/additions. The item that are (very) interchangeable
Athena guide.the second is a bit more limiting in freedom which is an item option format. Not my preferred one (which is the core format), however also a solid format especially for newer players. This one is pretty much giving you several items in 1 (life steal) or multiple groups (think protections). Giving advise on when to pick up which item in an item section (or notes as those are a thing nowadays). Just look at bran's
Medusa guide.Wait I kinda side tracked, ah well that is one thing that changed partly a build (or item changes from hi rez) thing however less guiding than before if you ask me.
Let's go back to enforcing the meta. I sorta have a kind scale I sorta have been people putting in on criticism they are giving. Before people get mad I don't mean the quality of the criticism as that is pretty solid IF it's actual criticism, not a sarcastic comment as several are prone to doing. I get you won't put effort into a longer comment on an obvious troll build and I'm not asking you too.
This scale uses names, because numbers would look a bit more negative imo. The people their names I used are for several reasons. So there will be a bit of user discussion here.
So the scale is pretty much called the Kriega-Salad scale. Why? Let me elaborate.
What I know and have seen about/from Kriega is that he mostly uses pro and current-meta material. Which is a pretty good thing looking at some of the suggestions I have seen him make (even though sometimes it looks more like orders XD). For guides this is a pretty solid thing for both new and older players. New players will understand a bit more about item building in general and older players find ways to tweak their build towards "perfection".
Just as a spoiler alert most of the active members end up at this side of the spectrum. Not only in criticism but also in what sort of builds they like to see. Also it is easier to argue for meta stuff than for non meta stuff.
On the other side of the spectrum is Salad. Looking at his knowledge and backgrounds he can find himself better in reasons for viable but off-meta from what i have noticed. This can help new players and old players in another way. His knowledge would be able to create/advise towards builds that make use of a more niche or different playstyle for older players. For newer player I would see him make suggestions that would be good at a certain elo or less punishing on short term mistakes.
A fun thing to note is that during my time here I have seen Bran going more towards the salad side of the spectrum, Since he started looking behind the playstyle lately. Which sort of reflects things from the old part of the community.
So like i already said most people are more on the kriega side of the spectrum, which kinda means any feedback could change viable offmeta builds. Looking at how rough criticism is given nowadays I feel that a lot of guide makers go towards the point of just changing it instead of discussing it. So honestly see this as a request of mine, however look at how Bran makes up his comments, Since they don't look as forceful as several others write them.
The effect of this won't scare people away as much and, since you have made good arguments about why item y is better as x. It helps people learn and depending on how they react you can also see if it's "a waste if time" to argue with a certain creator.
Im gonna leave it here before I turn this even more vague because of how tred and the amount of sleep i have gotten (my english probably is quite broken right now).
Some end notes I wanted to make: I didn't mean to cast any bad light on either kriega or salad with my scale both types of persob are valuable knowledge and criticism on guide. If for any reason I did I apologise for it.
And as last endnote apparantly I joined exactly 5 years ago. To think that smite isn't officially 5 years yet (since it was only released for a month at this time)
So, propose making at least 2 of Golden, Hastened, and SCS have a bit lower MS. Big problem is the Hastened sticking for the basic attackers right now, e.g.
Regarding guide/build formats, I find the 2nd option to be better. It's hard to identify a core in most cases. For ADCs, how do you choose a Tabi core when both
Kriega-Salad scale, LOL. Good points. In all honesty, I value a lot of the things Kriega brings to the site. Meta knowledge and in-depth knowledge on specific gods is very helpful, and is probably the best direction for newer players or players looking to better hone a specific god. I just think his social niceties need a bit of easing in certain cases. He has shown to be very receptive and responsive when the person with the "bad" build is also receptive to feedback.
I like Salad's off-meta considerations a lot. Funny that you mention me trending toward that side. I'd like to think I've always been sort of in the middle of meta/off-meta considerations. Basically, I don't mind the niche builds looking to get a specific benefit out of a god's kit, with a specific type of non-meta gameplay attached to it. But I DON'T like "full HP Ymir" or "100% crit chance" builds with major weaknesses (e.g. no protections with that HP, no pen with that crit chance).
I want this site to be a good resource for newer players, and to be a welcoming site that promotes discussion and learning. We're never going to develop that sparking reputation in the community, but that doesn't mean that we can't be awesome to those people that actually give us a chance. And when we provide feedback, what is the end point but to provide information for improvement?
Also, congrats on 5 years, Dev. Glad you're back with your huge walls of gray text.
Just throwing that concept out there to perhaps spark other ideas.
true, the Core one is a bit more outdated and honestly works best if you have kit things that cater towards with hunters for example to either the unicorn or crit build.
Also boots are even with the core format taken apart IF there are multiple options.
Social niceties weren't a thing I had taken into account that would be another scale entirely, with different names.
well builds like max HP
Our goals align (or have never changed probably) looking at the "last" alinea. However you probably kinda noticed that already.
I honestly feel my wall of text have "improved" AKA gotten longer. Still gotta learn all that fancy BBcode some of you use.
My experience is better suited to explaining how to play around or counter the meta.
I have always had a saying which is "The Meta works for the Masses". A saying which is fairly self explanatory. The players that stand out and rise to the top are the ones who experiment outside of the meta, looking for the next big build/god/strat/comp that counters or outperforms the meta. It is those players that form the ever shifting meta.
I have always first and foremost advertized the meta on this site. However with my background I often find myself playing devil's advocate for a lot of "Outside the Box" things in my time on the site. I encourage players to think outside of the box and try things as long as they can provide good explanation and evidence.
I will never bash someone for playing the meta. I will, however support anyone trying to think outside of the box as long as they have a good thought process and/or are open tk constructive criticism.
That's exactly how I feel. We have plenty items but in the same way we have few items.
I'm not saying that there aren't "bad" items right now but I feel like we have sometimes a closed-minded, thinking only about meta and what big youtubers/streamers or pro players do. We don't discuss things. Usually we come with a pre-opinion ready, most of the times based on meta stuffs.
A classic example: the
And the question is: Why only after the SPL game we discovered Ferir was a good support? He didn't received buffs or nerfs to be specially suited in that role, so again I think that sometimes we are too closed-minded.
Another thing, I think HR should abandon the division by classes in conquest and adopt the division by Roles, like in LoL. For exemple Akali is an assassin in lol and is Top but Teemo is a Specialist and his role is also Top, so bringing it to smite, we could see something like "Solo" and there would mix every character that can be a solo laner independent of their actually class, so we could see
Just to you have an idea of how much smite is standard, every assassin is jungle, every warrior is solo...And if people are not playing with him it that role, HR change it to the "right" class, like they did with
It was a new idea, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it troll. Season 5 is basically what started off a lot of these new picks in different roles, so I have to disagree. It's the season I first seriously considered playing Chronos in solo lane.
Uhm I remember
- There is nothing wrong with classes, they are used (generally) to provide most gods in that class with a similar set of base stats. I think making division by roles is a terrible idea and will reduce flex potential for different gods. I don't think we should just keep variety in picks to just one role either (Solo).
>"Just to you have an idea of how much smite is standard, every assassin is jungle, every warrior is solo...And if people are not playing with him it that role, HR change it to the "right" class, like they did with Ravana, keeping the standard."
- We've also seen Assassins in Solo and Support, Warriors in Jungle and Support, Mage's in Mid Jungle ADC Solo and (more rarely) Support, Guardian's in Solo and Jungle, Hunters in Mid.
Also Ravana can still be played in Solo, he's just better suited to jungle and was mostly played there, thats why his base stats/kit was shifted to assassin.
You cant tell me that Ao Kuang is not am assassin and you cant tell me that Chronos isnt a carry.
https://smite.gamepedia.com/Chronos#Changelog
Even Sol, who had basic attack item effects removed from her 2, and had fatalis removed from her 3, can function both basic attack and ability based, it's just that the current itemisation since the reworked Soul Reaver and E-Staff (Mid Season 5) and buffed Demonic/Telkhines supports building her AA-based currently, which of course suits a Carry playstyle as opposed to a typical Mid one.
LoL also uses tags putting people in them, however they use primary secondary. The thing is myst is confusing this with a system LoL added when role select became a thing.
During champ select both LoL and Smite have a filter.
In smite it's a class filter that literally uses the assigned classes of the gods.
In LoL it's a role filter (top, jgl, mid, bot, support). What happens when you select one of the filter is that it shows the "most" (commonly played is the better term) played champions in that role, regardless of their class. this way "top" lane assassins also show up instead of only fighters or other champions that are played in multiple roles.
I would welcome that change too. it's easier than having to swap between 2 filters if you don;t know who you want to play.
I was saying that, in conquest, you filter by roles, so the gods appears based on the roles, breaking this idea that all assassin must be a jungler, all mages must be mids etc. The classes by themselves will still exist and will be used on non-conquest game modes or even in conquest but as a secondary class.
Yeah Trans, Asi is good, but there's a lot more variety in hunter builds now that it's confusing.
>"Mages: A class that was extremely straightforward for me in S1. However, with all the changes I have no damn clue anymore. I still know the things about pen etc. However those are just stats. Items give more than stats and I can't fully wrap my head around it. both for basic attacking and mostly ability based."
I might be able to help with some mages, not 100% sure myself though, because I may underrate Book of Thoth since the shift and Soul Reaver since the nerfs. You could give a mage (or multiple) and I could try and make up some sample builds.
>"As end opinion on this I will have to state IMO the amount of items has to go down again, mostly cause I feel certain items are just "existing". - Or they could rework passives, make Stone of Fal like the pre-rework version. I really don't see the point of that one item in the health item tree that heals on objective/structure kills.
>"he mostly uses pro and current-meta material." - At least you didn't say "all", because then you would be wrong. I definitely do list some off-meta type stuff.
When I first came to the site there was quite a few off-meta builds I was using/making, some good, some bad. For the most part, learning to use more meta builds has increased my effectiveness in games, like when I started watching PrettyPrime play Thoth on Twitch, where I saw he was building glass cannon generally and stacking Book of Thoth (and also his little "Swift Wing" starter item strat to get to lane quicker when rushing tier 2 Thoth without having to buy boots), while I was building Bancrofts (which got fairly potent at some point in season 4), and in some games breastplate, on Thoth... (Reasoning being annoying Warrior Jungles like Ravana, and just how generally how much of a pain warriors were then). Here was the original builds: https://www.smitefire.com/smite/guide/thoth-the-arcane-spellcaster-mid-lane-ranked-casual-conquest-builds-17901 (Also Telkhines was listed because at that point it wasn't a basic attack item, it's gone from basic attack to power/abiltiy based and then back to basic attack).
Yeah Trans, Asi is good, but there's a lot more variety in hunter builds now that it's confusing.
true there are more viable items, however I don't feel as lost with the changes. And several items make sense if I see them even though I probably won;t prefer them (crusher)
>"Mages: A class that was extremely straightforward for me in S1. However, with all the changes I have no damn clue anymore. I still know the things about pen etc. However those are just stats. Items give more than stats and I can't fully wrap my head around it. both for basic attacking and mostly ability based."
I might be able to help with some mages, not 100% sure myself though, because I may underrate Book of Thoth since the shift and Soul Reaver since the nerfs. You could give a mage (or multiple) and I could try and make up some sample builds.
I will take you up on that offer. I assume the 3 type of mages haven;t changed as much apart from item building. So I would prefer mostly a general path (even if it is jsut you need these 3 items for sure and in slot X,Y,Z you plop an e.g. pewn item):
-basic attack mages (I assume the rings are still quite big here and this one is more straight forward for me to learn)
-DoT (no idea how much it changed apart from
-burst mages. pretty much pick
-just gonna say it like this: gods like
Just to give you an insight of how I knew mage builds was something like this (and yes way more stale. don;t remember basic attack focused once sadly never really played them):
>"As end opinion on this I will have to state IMO the amount of items has to go down again, mostly cause I feel certain items are just "existing".
- Or they could rework passives, make Stone of Fal like the pre-rework version. I really don't see the point of that one item in the health item tree that heals on objective/structure kills.
Also fine, my biggest problem is the amount of non-usefulness items there are.
>"he mostly uses pro and current-meta material." - At least you didn't say "all", because then you would be wrong. I definitely do list some off-meta type stuff.
When I first came to the site there was quite a few off-meta builds I was using/making, some good, some bad. For the most part, learning to use more meta builds has increased my effectiveness in games, like when I started watching PrettyPrime play Thoth on Twitch, where I saw he was building glass cannon generally and stacking Book of Thoth (and also his little "Swift Wing" starter item strat to get to lane quicker when rushing tier 2 Thoth without having to buy boots), while I was building Bancrofts (which got fairly potent at some point in season 4), and in some games breastplate, on Thoth... (Reasoning being annoying Warrior Jungles like Ravana, and just how generally how much of a pain warriors were then). Here was the original builds: https://www.smitefire.com/smite/guide/thoth-the-arcane-spellcaster-mid-lane-ranked-casual-conquest-builds-17901 (Also Telkhines was listed because at that point it wasn't a basic attack item, it's gone from basic attack to power/abiltiy based and then back to basic attack).
fun change for
Also if you were only using full meta stuff heads would have butted with a lot of people on the site here that have good guides however have some unconventional thing in there and several pieces of advise you would have given would have been different.
Will probably give your guide a read either when I reach
Oh don't actually use them lol. It was just an example of how I previously built at one point, but since then I've archived the build. I just linked it to explain what I was talking about.
>I will take you up on that offer. I assume the 3 type of mages haven;t changed as much apart from item building. So I would prefer mostly a general path (even if it is jsut you need these 3 items for sure and in slot X,Y,Z you plop an e.g. pewn item):
-basic attack mages (I assume the rings are still quite big here and this one is more straight forward for me to learn)
-DoT (no idea how much it changed apart from Spear of the Magus Obsidian Shard swaps XD. Honestly if you want to go specific you may pick Zhong Kui as example (or Anubis)
-burst mages. pretty much pick Scylla as an example.
-just gonna say it like this: gods like Ra, Chang'e
Just to give you an insight of how I knew mage builds was something like this (and yes way more stale. don;t remember basic attack focused once sadly never really played them):
starter
stacking item (at my time Doom Orb, Warlock's Staff, Book of Thoth) or Bancroft's Talon on a non stacking gods.
boots (mostly pen boots)
Chronos' Pendant or breasplate of valor (pretty much high CDR item depending on physical burst)
lifesteal (could also be pen here depending on tanks and magic resist building etc.)
Rod of Tahuti or pen
Rod of Tahuti or pen (whichever was missing)
Oh I meant specific gods, like not all DoT mages would necessarily go the same build (Zeus, Zhong and Anubis), though they can borrow some itemisation. The healer mages also can differ (I would build Chang'e differently to Ra, who is more of a burst mage). It's easier if you just give a couple of gods for now you would like a general build for, in the role you're interested (unless it's only mid).
Still, i'll try to make a generic path for Mid Lane, which i'll edit to this comment once im done.
>Basic Attack Mages:
Start:
Build:
Other items to consider:
>DoT Mages:
Start:
Build:
Other items to consider:
>
Start:
Build:
Other items to consider:
>Burst Mages:
Start:
Build:
Other items to consider:
>
Start:
Build type 1:
Build type 2:
Other items to consider:
>
Start:
Build:
Other items to consider:
>
Start:
Build:
Other items to consider:
If you want more specific examples that I haven't yet given just list some names, as for extra build examples go to Smiteprobuilds, set filter to mid , and check both SPL and Ranked and possibly SML as well, you can also head to Smite.gg and check popular items there (as well as tweak the stats for each ranked division).
True I would also build
For DoT I'm mostly interested in Zhong atm. pretty much what I have been using is a bit more of a tankier build myself making use of