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Patch 6.3 Changes to Hunter Meta - Asi and Ichaival Theorycrafting

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Forum » Theory Crafting » Patch 6.3 Changes to Hunter Meta - Asi and Ichaival Theorycrafting 10 posts - page 1 of 1
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Branmuffin17 » March 26, 2019 5:05pm | Report
Alright, who is going to theory-craft with me?

Since the start of S6, we've seen Silverbranch Bow come into prominence. Crits are a bit down, and now we're seeing the 2 bridge items, Asi and Ichaival, get major shifts to full T3 items. Their costs are also on the higher side compared to the majority of standard hunter items.

Asi / Ichaival Item Changes


Asi

Let's talk about Asi first. Built in the same tree as Exe and Qin's, it's now a more functional lifesteal item due to the higher base lifesteal, the presence of higher flat pen and some power, along with a massive situational lifesteal boost. The core function is going to be the lifesteal, which means we should probably compare it with the other lifesteal hunter items, Devourer's Gauntlet and Bloodforge.
  • It doesn't seem like a good replacement for Devourer's Gauntlet, due to the lower power and high attack speed. Devo's is 200 gold less, and will provide a lot higher early power. I covered the concept of optimizing DPS by balancing power and attack speed here. In addition, where you can build T2 Devo's and get some reasonable early lifesteal, you don't get any of that with Balanced Blade. The other major reason for getting Devo's early is for stacking, which Asi doesn't need to do.

    I'm guessing people are NOT going to rush Asi, but I could be mistaken (I hope I'm not). Some early Health Potions could tide people over until they can buy the full item, at which point their sustain should be pretty incredible, though the power is again going to make their early single-hit damage a bit lackluster.

  • Bloodforge is definitely a late-game item (except for Assault) due to the price. The lifesteal is also lower, though the power is very nice, and the shield can help (though the shield gets higher as level increases). Asi could be an alternative to this, with an emphasis on boxing rather than a bit more burst potential (higher ability scaling due to higher power).

  • Soul Eater is not a traditional lifesteal item, and has seen interesting use. Pretty high power, some CDR, and healing function through both traditional physical lifesteal (basic attacks) along with added ability lifesteal at full stacks. We've seen it used mostly in the Jungle and Solo lanes. Asi could be a bit of an alternative to SE when the person building it doesn't really need the CDR. I guess I see it being potentially interesting for a basic attack god like Bakasura...but I'm still really focusing on hunters for now.
The Asi change in particular seems like it'll strengthen builds where it was often seen before...mainly, Transcendence builds, though the fit is a bit more awkward due to the much higher cost.

Trans builds are traditionally more for hunters with hybrid or ability function...e.g. Neith, Ullr, Chiron, Cupid, Skadi, Medusa, Hou Yi. The high power helps with ability scaling, and the huge mana pool and 10% CDR mean they can rely a good amount on ability use. After building Trans, those builds either go into further into ability function, or finish with a normal Qin's-type build. Trans and crit have never really gotten along, mainly because those 3 items (Trans + 2 crit) take up half the available item space, with only 3 slots left for other essentials (Exe, Boots, and possibly lifesteal). It's the lifesteal that's been the biggest holdup to a good Trans crit build, IMO, because most LS either had no power (Asi previously, and 0 power is not good for crit), or had no AS (Devo's, BF) to help with basic attack DPS. Asi now looks to potentially bridge that gap, at least in my head.

So let's see.

Trans Builds


Ichaival

Moving away from Asi, let's think about uses for Ichaival. The price is almost the same as the new Asi, so sort of ruins the really nice bridge boxing capabilities. With no pen or lifesteal, it seems like a specific late-game item now, once you have the core items in place.

Besides that Build 2 example above, let's see if it makes sense to put it into a Devo's build. Will list some normal non-Trans builds.

Ichaival-ish Builds


Comparing Devo's / Trans Build Progression

Now (yes, I have more up my sleeve), what about comparing a Trans and Devo's build progression (and let's throw Impish's into it as well)? Let's take the first 3 items (outside of Hunter's Blessing).

Let's assume all use Ninja Tabi.
Takeaways:
  • Impish has the early mobility boost due to Ninja being built first (unless you rush Silver), and it's cheapest through 3 items. This makes it a bit safer, but no lifesteal means you either need a healing Support, or enough Healing Potions to cover any damage you take. Also, in pure DPS while hitting all attacks, this build probably has a slight DPS advantage.

  • Devo's provides the best early health sustain from the lifesteal, and has a power curve advantage at first and 3rd items, for a total of 450 gold less than Trans. You could also do the Impish thing and rush Boots. Definitely lower DPS at this stage compared to Impish, but the lifesteal will give you the sustain advantage, winning you the boxing match in the end.

  • Trans allows you to spam abilities due to the high mana. You'll need to be careful of your health until you get Asi up, but if you exchange damage with an Impish build, you're going to win due to the lifesteal. With the slowest power curve, you'll be at a disadvantage of some amount until you get Asi, but at that point, you will likely win a fight against either Impish or Devo's builds, at least considering just basics. In addition, the CDR and mana mean you can use abilities more often.
So what am I forgetting or not talking about? I'm seeing Trans Asi as the new exciting build path for pretty much all gods that can work with either Devo's or Trans. I don't know if it's better for gods that typically would only build Devo's, but it doesn't seem bad. And I still don't really like the concept of Impish's Silver being built so early, but I can't argue the early DPS potential.

What are your thoughts? Did I screw anything up? Want me to cover another topic on this?

Branmuffin17
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kriega1 » March 26, 2019 5:12pm | Report
New ichaival is absolutely broken.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Vini_sds » March 26, 2019 5:29pm | Report
I’m thinking more about the interactions of these two new items with certain gods and other items that got buffed at the start of S6.

The first example that comes to my mind is Cernunnos; he can now build both Runeforged Hammer and Asi. Surely, Asi isn’t as strong as Devos when it comes to power, but it’s almost the same in the lifesteal department (right?). How strong will Cernunnos be with these items?

I’m also thinking about Transcendence hunters. Besides Neith and Ullr, Soul Eater isn’t exactly that good on other hunters to be considered core. At least I don’t see it being good on other ability-based hunters. But with the new Asi they can have a reliable lifesteal item, while keeping Trans in the build.


Now, about the new Ichaival, I’m pretty sure it will replace Odysseus' Bow in almost every scenario.
Also, at the same time that this item will be excelent on gods like Bakasura and Cernunnos, it can also be used to counter them. With this, countering AA gods won’t be only the support responsibility?

I’m gonna give some more thought to this changes, but that’s what I have for now.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Supportable » March 26, 2019 5:32pm | Report
A question for you, for hunters without attack speed steroids would Oddyseus' Bow be a DPS increase over Silverbranch Bow for your Transcendence + Asi build?

I personally think Asi isn't quite good enough to replace any items in common hunter builds yet aside from it's synergy with Transcendence, though I could see a stat boost like upping the power from +20 to +30 sealing the deal. For it's cost it doesn't really justify itself against just a Devourer's Gauntlet etc.

Ichaival however.. I think you could even rush this item pretty early and do amazing with it. Grabbing Ichaival after boots makes you pretty borderline unboxable, and it's stats are also amazing.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Gulfwulf » March 26, 2019 5:41pm | Report
I tried SE on Skadi in Arena and wasn't very impressed. Sure it's not Conquest, but if it can't work in Arena, it probably won't work in Conquest either.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by SkyPirateShini » March 26, 2019 5:45pm | Report
New Asi is pretty much core on Izanami as far as I'm concerned. She doesn't get the best use out of Transcendence but I think the combined power and everything will make up for it. Do agree that new Ichaival will probably be seen a lot more and will probably be the new meta.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Gulfwulf » March 26, 2019 5:49pm | Report
I can see Artemis getting good use out of it as well.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kriega1 » March 26, 2019 5:52pm | Report
Gulfwulf wrote:

I tried SE on Skadi in Arena and wasn't very impressed. Sure it's not Conquest, but if it can't work in Arena, it probably won't work in Conquest either.


I would only consider SE on Skadi for maybe Assault. I have said before multiple times it's not good on her, she has long cooldowns.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Gulfwulf » March 26, 2019 6:00pm | Report
Kriega1 wrote:
I would only consider SE on Skadi for maybe Assault. I have said before multiple times it's not good on her, she has long cooldowns.

I go with Bloodforge in Assault. When I did play her in Conquest, I used the Transcendence build with Warrior Tabi, The Executioner, Qin's Sais, Jotunn's Wrath, etc. This was last season, though.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Branmuffin17 » March 27, 2019 12:45pm | Report
Supportable wrote:

A question for you, for hunters without attack speed steroids would Oddyseus' Bow be a DPS increase over Silverbranch Bow for your Transcendence + Asi build?

I personally think Asi isn't quite good enough to replace any items in common hunter builds yet aside from it's synergy with Transcendence, though I could see a stat boost like upping the power from +20 to +30 sealing the deal. For it's cost it doesn't really justify itself against just a Devourer's Gauntlet etc.

Ichaival however.. I think you could even rush this item pretty early and do amazing with it. Grabbing Ichaival after boots makes you pretty borderline unboxable, and it's stats are also amazing.

Hey Supportable,

The chain lightning from O-Bow is difficult to calculate in terms of damage increase, as it usually won't apply to just one target (and DPS is usually considered against just 1 target), only triggers every 4th hit, and the damage from it will vary depending on the different gods it hits (when it hits gods and not minions sometimes). But Silverbranch is basically always going to beat out O-Bow. There's only a 10% difference in AS, and the reason Silver is going to beat out O-Bow is due to the power and flat pen.

Now, Ichaival comes into the equation, and as far as I'm seeing, it is probably going to be the better option over Silver, at least in a complete build. Overcapping AS significantly with steroids could possibly give Silver a higher base DPS, due to combining with the 10 flat pen, but the -30% AS swing from 3 stacks of Ichaival on an enemy god is more often than not going to be more beneficial.

And you're perhaps right...Ich early might in fact be a thing...but I don't like losing out on some early pen. If you get it 3rd after Trans/Devo's + Tabi, you're delaying any pen to item #4. This is probably okay for boxing another ADC, but could reduce effectiveness against a tank that has built protections at that point.

The big point of Asi, as I feel above, isn't about replacing Devo's. It's more about, is Devo's the better path, even for basic attackers? Or is Trans now possibly better for most when incorporating Asi? There are pros/cons to both paths, of course.

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