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Unfinished build
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Second, your conquest qins build should have executioner before qins.
Yes, it does.
I feel that the build order for Qin's Sais and The Executioner can be situationally interchangeable.
After establishing my core of Devo's and Boots (and perhaps Ichaival), whether I buy Qins or Exe next usually depends on how I'm farming. Since they both derive from the same tier 2 item Balanced Blade, there are times when you can be farming for Exe but end up with enough gold for Qins when you back, in which case I usually buy it.
Also I recommend getting Deathbringer before Wind Demon but it's personal preference.
One more thing, Magi's Cloak can be a good situational against heavy CC on enemy team.
Atalanta's Bow is basically a situational alternative to Odysseus' Bow (actually provides more DPS in most cases).
Toxic Blade can function in a Qin's build as a situational hybrid item, as it provides you with solid offensive capabilities and a bit of utility. Good against certain comps.
Magi's Cloak I'll consider. Don't think I've ever had to build it in ranked conquest. It may be more needed in higher ranks though. Purification Beads and a CC-immune ultimate has usually been enough to feel safe when I'm playing defensively (unless I'm playing ranked Joust and lagging my brains out, lol).
I think Hachiman has the ability to farm for Qin's over Exe easily as he has inherent mana sustain from his kit along with health sustain from Devo's.
The only drawback to delaying Executioner in my mind is your inability to cooperate effectively with your jungler during ganks, although this problem disappears if your jg is a magical user such as an Ao Kuang.
That being said, I decided to implement it as my standard build in the showcase. Thanks for the suggestion!
Also I love this guy. He's so positive and happy.
Maybe he was creepin on my guide, lol.
or maybe you are him...
Decided to keep this guide simple and showcase how I personally recommend building. I originally set out to make this an all-encompassing build guide that could account for all types of builds, even some more unorthodox ones that I wouldn't typically recommend.
At the end of the day, decided to just stick with my building philosophy and offer only that. I realize that not everyone will agree with it, but I think a lot of the fun of this game is finding what works for you and applying it. I'm just sharing for those who don't know what to consider when building and at least point them in a general direction, rather than confuse them by overloading them with information.
I'm happy with the turnout :)
Thanks, everyone!
On your "key elements" section, the AS should read 1.000 (+0.013 per level). His base AS is 1, and so any AS multiplier needs to use that base value. At level 1, it would be 1.000 + 0.013.
Very interesting that you've adjusted again, more interesting about the actual adjustments.
So...if you value that early game DPS, it's seeming that Hunter's -> Devo's -> Warrior -> Ich -> is a great path. If you don't mind a slight early dip, getting Ninja instead of Warrior and then getting Qin's before Exe will give you a solid DPS advantage by that stage.
So I'm wondering why you keep gravitating back to this. You were saying in our last game together that you were going for a...spicy (?) build...? I forget the word you used, but then you pulled that item combo off...so I know you'd already had it on your mind.
TB absolutely makes things very nice against those annoying tanks.
Good catch! I will fix this.
Yes, actually. Both boots can work, but your chart influenced me to reconsider starting boots. Thanks!
Thank you!
Yes, The Crusher is the only #3 item that doesn't necessarily have to be upgraded late game. Personally, I find the Odysseus' Bow passive very useful in late game situations where enemies are bunched up under structures and near objectives in cramped jungle corridors. This build does very well against tanky frontlines, and as an added effect, your damage can potentially jump behind tanks and chain their squishies that they are trying to protect.
So...if you value that early game DPS, it's seeming that Hunter's -> Devo's -> Warrior -> Ich -> is a great path. If you don't mind a slight early dip, getting Ninja instead of Warrior and then getting Qin's before Exe will give you a solid DPS advantage by that stage.
Both boots have their advantages and it really comes down to user preference.
Additionally, there could be attack speed increases coming from outside sources. Examples include Shogun's Kusari, Fafnir's Coerce, etc..
On that same note, the enemy could be building several anti-attack speed items, and you may find it necessary to compensate with certain items.
If we assume no buff or debuffs are present, then yes, I would agree that you almost always want to replace Warrior with Ninja late for the DPS increase.
Oops! The reason I combined those two in the build showcase was to show that they can be built in either order, as long as you build them both. I forgot to make the note for it though. Thanks for mentioning this.
Most of my matches as of late have been following a common trend:
Squishy, ranged damage threats hang in the back line while tanky supports and warriors distract and protect in the frontlines. This goes for defending under structures and attacking.
When defending, if you can force enemy tanks out of tanking tower/phoenix aggro, your chances of success on defending that objective significantly improves.
When attacking, weakening enemy frontlines causes them to fall back and allows your frontline to charge forward and harass squishies so that you can attack structures.
Even with The Executioner, the penetration it provides is hard to match.
Let's take a target with 275 physical protections for example. Hitting them with 3 basics using The Executioner reduces their prots to 176. Titan's Bane will provide 40% penetration in that scenario, equaling 70 flat pen... pretty significant.
Use that example with someone who has about 150 physical defense, and you end up with Titan's providing somewhere in the 20-30ish range flat pen, so squishies will still be burst down by your attacks.
lol xD
Building some Lifesteal before Penetration is a viable option, but not your only option.
My general build guideline is as follows:
What about The Crusher in your example build before The Executioner? Thoughts?
I finally got around to working on this and making it a more comprehensive guide.
As for the example build, I think The Crusher before The Executioner is great. I think I like that better as a general build example. I do feel that the two can be switched depending on the situation though.
For example, if the Support is hanging around and getting in my face, or perhaps built an early Sovereignty, I might opt for The Executioner sooner rather than later.
If I might chip in on this question, I would say, like any other god, your normal progression is going to be prioritizing wave-clear (in Hachi's case, Heavenly Banner). Depending on how things are going, your next priority will be either Iaijutsu or Eagle Eye. If able to exchange/box confidently or am just undecided, I'd get Iaijutsu for the higher damage potential and stun...but if I'm having to play very safely and far back, I won't get as much out of it, and so I'd probably consider Eagle Eye for the poke potential. If nothing else in these cases, you could get Eagle Eye up to level 3 for the added ammo, and then finish off Iaijutsu before completing Eye.
As for Mounted Archery, I'd level that as needed...you can either get it at every available level (5, 9, 13, 17, 20), or you could delay just a bit here and there to level other abilities as preferred. Normally, I'd prioritize the ult except perhaps at level 9, where I might do a point-skip at level 8, and finish off Heavenly Banner and get a 2nd point into Mounted Archery at level 9.
The reason for point-skipping? He's very reliant on Heavenly Banner for his wave clear, and it also provides so much more added benefit compared to his other skills, due to the increased attack speed and duration.
So...suggested skill leveling order:
2 (wave clear), 3 (escape), 2, 1, 4 (ult), 2, 2, point-skip level 8, 2 + 4 at level 9, 3, 3, 3, 4, 3, 1, 1, 4, 1, 1, 4.
Make sense?
Alright, I'll add that in there.
I made this with simplicity in mind. Just wanted to give a general skeleton for the builds while providing options to suit different playstyles.
I think the stun thing is a very situational thing about "sealing the enemy's fate," and personally don't feel it's applicable to being in a guide like this. Having Purification Beads, being tankier and thus able to absorb some damage, having Hide of the Nemean Lion, and/or activating Shield of Thorns, etc., etc., are all reasons why you might not get a kill.
Regarding the builds, some comments:
Additionally, in terms of build flexibility, Devo's provides more overall function for sustain. Trans is for mana and power. Devo's is lifesteal and power. If you get Trans you'll usually want lifesteal elsewhere, which means Asi or Bloodforge at some point. If you get Devo's, you don't have to worry about additional lifesteal except as luxury, and can then focus on getting other types of items.
In the end, what am I saying here? I feel your example build should show Devo's rather than Trans.
Confirmed in jungle practice: Level 20, no items. Base AS is 1.26. Dropping the banner increases AS to 1.41. Moving inside the banner increases AS to 1.56.
Anyway, solid overall info, DV. I realized I didn't upvote, so I've done now.
Even if they do have something to fight back, you'll still have the steroid from WD to help you. Hide of the Nemean Lion on the enemy isn't as wonderful if you build lifesteal (which DV-8 did in his crit build).
What if it's He Bo and he's got his 1 and ult up? What if any of those enemies has an escape handy? Other than your ult, you've just blown your mobility ability, and any dash/leap etc. that the enemy has is going to give them some distance from you. So it's not just them sitting and taking a beating, they could have a stun in their kits, Mantle of Discord's passive may trigger...see why I just don't think it's a statement that's all that applicable?
At the end of the day, I decided to change my showcase build, as well as add a Build Order table in the guide section to help newer players. Again, thanks for the feedback, guys!
With the stun, after rethinking it, I agree with your thoughts. I don't believe it "seals their fate", but it does give you an offensive edge in a boxing match. If anything, the stun gives you a better chance of landing a Heavenly Banner on an enemy rather than multiple basic attacks (like you said, it is only a one second stun).
As for Devo's vs Trans, I'd be willing to discuss this further.
Adding core items is a good idea. I will edit this as well.
As for Heavenly Banner, I DID notice this in Jungle Practice! I forgot about it to be honest... '-' Good catch xD
I could elaborate on the ultimate a bit more I suppose. I will edit this guide soon.
Again, thanks for the feedback!
Good comparison, interesting to see the actual values.
I think one other thing should be considered...value at different stages of the build.
With Devo's, what I feel gives it the stronger overall build value is that the lifesteal is there in the beginning...that's a great amount of sustain so even if you get hurt to some degree, you can still potentially heal up with minion waves or nearby camps.
The other thing there is that, although prices aren't hugely different, consider where you're at at similar gold incomes. Devo's can be built a bit earlier than Trans. Asi in the 3rd spot in the Trans build delays The Executioner...Exe 3rd in Devo's means a bit more function compared to Asi in that same position.
(3 items not including Hunter's, let's say level 14 cuz I dunno...also not listing all stats, just the main points)
Trans build:
Thoughts?
You're right though. Devo's can typically build lifesteal and Qin's sooner than a Trans build.
I might add though, the mana sustain from Trans isn't completely useless on him. Yes, his passive helps him in the early game, but as Hachimaan levels up his skills, he will be using more mana. If he is spamming his abilities while out farming for a long time (perhaps for one of the more expensive items), it isn't a stretch for him to deplete his mana.
In conclusion, Trans is viable, but Devo's is preferred.
You could delay lifesteal until the later stages of the game if you want to powerspike earlier. Lifesteal is preferred, but not essential in my opinion. If your focus is boxing, then it becomes important, but if you are hiding behind your tanks and letting them initiate while you follow up... less crucial.
But, I digress, Devo's for the win :P
And in a Conquest situation, you'll get your escape 2nd, like you suggest in your build order, but depending, I think it's a bit risky to delay Boots until item 2 (what HR also suggested). Personally, I'd feel more comfortable with Boots first, but that's me. As for which boots, I think in this case, he's probably okay with Ninja Tabi, even though many would opt for Warrior first...his scaling on his clearing ability is somewhat low, so the 20 extra power won't do much (8 added damage on his Heavenly Banner).
With a somewhat low level of attack speed steroid, I might consider 3x crit in his case as more standard... Poisoned Star or Wind Demon first, Deathbringer 2nd, and then Poisoned Star or Wind Demon 3rd (whichever you didn't get before). Why? He's got that long range poke in Eagle Eye, and being able to burst them before they get away with the added attack speed and higher crit chance would be helpful.
So, TB 6th only against very tanky teams...situational option, but not only option. Thoughts?
Thanks for the feedback! I saw that the overlords say that Hachiman was now available for building so I figured, "Meh, why not?" lol. Can you link me to the HiRez stream you are referring to? That might be what some of the players that I have been watching play Hachiman have watched.
My first impression was that he could definitely make use of the Devour's Gauntlet / Crit build that has been run so frequently in the new meta. Very true that you could build Devour's Gauntlet before or after boots and be fine (edited the build to reflect this). Personally, I like to rush Devo's for several reasons. Hachiman has a decent dash escape (with a stun if you play it right) to get out of bad situations, and an ultimate which is a dash. On top of that, he has long range abilities that allow you to position him further away and allow you more safety. Devo's is very cheap so getting the early stacks, power, and lifesteal is very strong in my opinion. At this stage of the match, the furthest you will really be travelling is the Gold Fury, so with good warding, I feel safe for the most part. The jungler at that stage of the game tends to be very occupied with the Solo and Mid side of the map as well, and you may not see much of them at all in the duo lane for some time. That is just me though, so if people feel that they cannot safely do this, boots first are fine. As for Warrior Tabi and Ninja Tabi, I agree that Warrior Tabi is best, but then replaced late game for Ninja Tabi for higher DPS (edited build to reflect this).
The 3x crit you suggested is also good advice. Yes, replacing Titan's Bane with an additional crit item would give you better damage, but I feel the need to defend my Titan's Bane as I have been running it on ALL my hunters and liking the results (even when I build The Executioner). There is really only one main reason I build this item, especially in this slot. That reason is for objective takedowns. As a carry, I feel it my responsibility for demolishing towers (if there are any left), phoenixes, and the Titan. The protection penetration from Titan's Bane will give you the greatest single item increase in objective takedown, which is huge. The Executioner, while great against gods, can't do that against objectives. For ADC's, if you're looking for more damage to gods, yes, there are better options elsewhere. But as opposed to building more god damage (I feel that after Deathbringer my damage is pretty solid), I really am a strong advocate for Titan's Bane for objectives. I will change the build though for those who want this extra crit and damage option (maybe if your team has to be defensive for a while and isn't pushing objectives).
Again, great feedback. Thanks!
I did say that going Ninja instead of Warrior might be okay for him, because of somewhat low scaling not helping quite as much...but Warrior first and switching to Ninja works fine as well, of course.
I almost never suggest 3x crit, but it just seems to make sense to me in this case...high chance for a nice killing blow at distance, with the attack speed to back up the opportunities to crit.
Titan's Bane is fine, and I get your argument for it especially vs. objectives. My opinion here is that, if you do want TB, it's often better earlier, because at the point you're finishing your last item (you have it as item #6), many of those objectives are already down, right? Guess it depends on the game.
Anyway, the video is just the standard God Reveal that HR puts out:
Yeah, I feel Warrior Tabi better for early game DPS. More power for crit, etc..
Obviously it depends on the match how many structures are still standing. As long as the enemy titan is still standing though Titans Bane can be useful.
Ah, thats the video. Not bad, solid breakdown. I thought u meant a stream or something. Shoutouts to HiRez for giving him a kind of meta build lol.
With Ninja, Devo's, Exe, Poison, DB, Wind, at level 20 with him inside his Heavenly Banner (*edit* and with the WD passive in effect), he's just at the edge of max...2.46 out of a max 2.5 AS. It actually feels really good being at that border, and that 60% crit chance plus all of the other passive effects feel like it should be pretty solid, but of course we'd need actual gameplay to see how it works in a real situation.
Feel like the added damage from his 1 isn't necessary...like, in a 1v1 engagement, I'd probably plop down Banner, box, use his dash situationally, and if they look to escape, then use his 1 to try to pick them off (with his horsie as backup).
He looks super fun. His basic attack animation looks really nice and clean too. I can't wait to use him.
I haven't actually tested the new god or build out yet. In theory though, this build should work fine.