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Thoth theoretical Spear of the Magus build and Pen overcap

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Forum » Theory Crafting » Thoth theoretical Spear of the Magus build and Pen overcap 13 posts - page 1 of 2
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kriega1 » July 6, 2017 12:09pm | Report
I have been theorising one or two Thoth builds that have Spear of the Magus in them and I was wondering if they could be viable as a more team-oriented build compared with ones that incorporate Obsidian Shard, as Spear of the Magus passive works through Thoth's basics using Glyph of Pain on towers as well as ally's auto attacks through the wall. Also I know Bancroft's Talon is great on Thoth right now but that item is better suited with Obsidian Shard, as I believe Spear of the Magus needs mana and cooldown reduction to have its passive applied constantly to use it to its full potential.

Start: Sands of Time , Soul Reliquary , Healing Potion. (Not the best start, but is the best Book of Thoth rush start)

Build Path 1: Shoes of the Magi, Book of Thoth, Spear of the Magus, Chronos' Pendant (expensive at fourth item but is really needed at this point), Rod of Tahuti, Ethereal Staff.

Build Path 2: Shoes of Focus, Book of Thoth, Spear of the Magus, Spear of Desolation, Rod of Tahuti, Chronos' Pendant. Now this build would be my preferred one (with the max cooldown reduction) , however when Thoth gets his passive Dead Reckoning fully online it provides him 20 flat magical penetration, however this builds exceeds the magical penetration cap (+35 from Spear of the Magus and Spear of Desolation) by 5 flat magical penetration, is this really a big deal or not? And if so, is build 1 better?

Link to builds if you want to see it bigger - it's the third build : https://www.smitefire.com/smite/guide/thoth-the-arcane-spellcaster-mid-lane-ranked-casual-conquest-builds-17901

Edit: Build 1 doesen't work well at all with Spear of the Magus.

Kriega1


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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Branmuffin17 » July 6, 2017 12:31pm | Report
Hey Kriega,

Interesting concept...that enhanced damage bonus from Glyph of Pain could help take down objectives more quickly when you've got ranged basic teammates nearby.

Regarding Spear of the Magus, you say that the passive works through Thoth's basics on towers. I do want to point out that protection reduction effects do not apply to towers/phoenixes...only % pen and flat pen work on towers. As such, you'd only get benefit on towers from the 15 flat pen...and although the bonus damage from Glyph would increase teammates' ranged basics, they won't get that same 15 pen benefit...only you (at least, as far as I know).

Regarding CDR, I personally don't think 40% is necessary. His CD on Glyph of Pain is 5 seconds so it can basically be perpetually active. When you're talking about CD to help the passive Spear effect, I'm assuming you're specifically talking about Hieroglyphic Assault. That has a CD of 8 seconds, so I understand the concept...but it only provides 3 hits, and the Spear passive only stacks with ability damage. So I don't think you'll usually have it fully stacked with him, making Obsidian Shard the hands-down superior pen item for him.

Regarding overcapping pen, I don't think the 5 overcap is a big deal.

I definitely like build #2 better, but would change it thus...

Sands of Time, Shoes of the Magi, Book of Thoth, Bancroft's Talon, Spear of Desolation, Obsidian Shard / Rod of Tahuti (whichever order needed), switch Magi for Shoes of Focus. 20% CDR seems like plenty for him, at least in my estimation.

I'm not sure though...is any of my info above incorrect?

*EDIT* From the Word of Thoth:
Generally speaking, ability damage and debuffs cannot be applied to a tower,with the exception of Fafnir’s Coerce or Thoth’s Glyph of Pain and the ability damage applied from these two sources, which can apply effects such as Spear of the Magus.

Also, Smite Wiki:

Debuff penetration effects like The Executioner, Spear of the Magus, and Void Shield's aura, aside when affected by a rare ability that applies triggering damage to towers, like Thoth's Glyph of Pain, do not apply to Towers and Phoenixes.

Okay...so...damn, didn't know that. So that means...Thoth's own attacks actually apply the effect on structures?

This maybe changes things, but perhaps situationally? Still think CDR isn't all that necessary. Towers have 150 physical and magical protection. Spear, once stacked, sounds like it applies up to 65 pen effect for Thoth, and 50 for other magical gods. Means, standalone, Spear CAN be a bit more effective than Obsidian Shard for Thoth. But, if the only other magical god is a Guardian in Conquest, Thoth is the only one that will get that added pen from it. At that point, Glyph still has its function for any ranged gods just for the damage increase, but otherwise, I'd say Obsidian Shard is still better overall, especially for ult use.

Branmuffin17
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by boogiebass » July 6, 2017 2:55pm | Report
Word of Thoth.
Someone actually made a textbook out of smite mechanics? That's pretty cool. I'm gonna give it a good, thorough read.

Bran, you should teach a college class on smite/MOBAs.

boogiebass
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Branmuffin17 » July 6, 2017 3:08pm | Report
@boogie, oh man that would be awful!!! LOL

It's one of those where...okay, my general knowledge of basic mechanics and things are solid, but not anywhere close to elite. Look at my self-analysis and Duotem's analysis of my game from my blog to see the level of detail and things that I never even thought about. And gameplay-wise, it's one of those things that I probably KNOW better than to do something, but I do it anyway because I'm stupid at actually applying things I know, hahaha.

I'm just really, really interested in said mechanics on a general level. I was thinking of builds from the first time I played it, and have needed that knowledge to be even remotely functional in the game.

Branmuffin17
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Time2medicate » July 6, 2017 5:59pm | Report
Just buy stone of gaia and cronos and thebes and you will be good

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Duotem » July 6, 2017 10:17pm | Report
I get what you're trying to do here with the build, but it negates what the god is good at in the process. Thoth is a tactical nuke so you want to be doing as much as you can with one ability from as far away as you can. You won't always have the time to build up the stacks which is why Obsidian shard is the better option 99% of the time. Both builds also have really awkward power spikes relative to what other mages will be building.

Build 1: You super overcap pen early against your most relevant targets. Your direct lane opponent who should be your main target only has a base of 30 so you're only getting 5 out of Spear passive if you don't have the god passive stacked. Even against other targets the fact that you have to take the time to build up makes it really rough

Build 2: Swapping Magus and Book of Thoth's spot makes the curve a bit better but it still has a really awkward curve. You still run into the issue of the enemy mage hitting you harder unless you have had time to build up the passive.

If you have to run one of these then run the second, but you're risking a lot by forcing yourself to play closer and within the magus timer to do significant damage come late game. Tanks, warriors especially, get to free dive you and will likely kill you before you can get away. You'll also straight up lose fights cause your ult won't do enough off of team set up alone.

Duotem


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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Kriega1 » July 7, 2017 3:58am | Report
@Branmuffin17, I took a proper look at Hieroglyphic Assault and Spear of the Magus and I feel that the max cooldown reduction is what can make the item somewhat viable in certain scenarios, as Hieroglyphic Assault has a 8 sec cooldown as you stated but with 40% CDR you will reduce this to 4.8 seconds (not including the 1 second reduction from passive from Chronos' Pendant) barely allowing you to keep the passive of Spear of the Magus maintained which lasts five seconds, though this would be easier if you find a safe way to use Evade and Punish when Hieroglyphic Assault is on cooldown, which will also refresh a stack from Spear of the Magus.

The build you suggested is good and I know that overall Obsidian Shard is generally the better choice, but after realising that Spear of the Magus is Magical protection reduction not protection reduction (Im foolish), I therefore think it may be viable IF your team has another Magical high damage dealer (e.g. Hades, Freya - Freya wont need to build Spear of the Magus) and only in the build which I suggest which has max CDR and max Flat Pen since you don't have Obsidian Shard (With a overcap of 5 but you said it doesn't really matter much).


@Duotem, For your point on maintaining the passive of Spear of the Magus the 40% cooldown reduction (build 2) on Hieroglyphic Assault is what allows this (4.8 second cooldown but Magus stacks each last 5 second), I just realised the first build wouldnt work at all with Spear of the Magus. Also on your point on playing closer, Thoth has good range if he uses Hieroglyphic Assault with Glyph of Pain but you are definitely correct about having to play around Spear of the Magus. So would you say the second build can still be viable IF the other Magical god on your team is a high damage dealer, or even if you have three Magical, two Physical team?

Kriega1


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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Duotem » July 7, 2017 5:03am | Report
I understand why you built the cooldown lmao that's not the issue. I would say anything can work in casuals :), but anyone who knows what they're doing is going to punish you hard for it. It's nothing I would ever recommend or expect to see past low level ranked at the most.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Devampi » July 7, 2017 5:54am | Report
boogiebass wrote:

Word of Thoth.
Someone actually made a textbook out of smite mechanics? That's pretty cool. I'm gonna give it a good, thorough read.

Bran, you should teach a college class on smite/MOBAs.


It's existed already somewhere in S1 I believe.

Also making the common mistake of saying all MOBAs are the same is a big mistake. the only time that's true is when you look at the countless chinese (or whatever asian country it was) complete LoL clones

Devampi
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Branmuffin17 » July 7, 2017 10:35am | Report
@Kriega, definitely understand the thought process. Other than what Duo said, big issue is that you're building this more for teamfight or objective function...means that, unless that magical ADC or whatever is with you, the purpose of the build is potentially significantly less effective. If teammates adjust their focus to coincide with yours, this basically voids potential strategies like split pushing, at least for ADCs (maybe not so much an Assassin Jungler).

Given that the ability already increases all teammates' ranged attack damage, I think that that is more than enough...building Thoth normally, they'll have their own pen (hopefully) so you just provide some enhancement in specific situations, while you retain your standard effectiveness.

Granted, 4.8 seconds on Hieroglyphic Assault is pretty darn quick and nice...not sure max CDR is needed, but it's one of those cases like Agni or He Bo where an item like Chronos' Pendant, with its passive, may be quite beneficial when you're always spamming abilities.

In any case, I absolutely love that you attempted to think outside the box. Whether or not it works well, it's a cool idea. Also, you taught me something...never knew the ability worked with Spear of the Magus.

Branmuffin17
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