Defensive Build or Power build [Assassins]

Im pretty sure this has been discussed somewhere, but I cannot find it.

Im here to ask which of the two would win in a 1v1 situation. And the reason I asked is because I just had an interesting mirror match in Conquest vs another Thor

I kept running into him in the jungle after stealing his buff pretty consistently and I would end up killing him, as long as the mid laner didnt come over. I built a bit of defense. He had more power.

That sounds like it should answer the question but it doesnt simply cause his build made me question his knowledge and strategy period.

Thor mirror

My build:
Warrior's Tabi Jotunns's Wrath Void Shield Titans Bane Pestilence (cause Chaac was solo lane) and Brawlers Beatstick

His build:
Warriors Tabi Golden Bow Titans Bane Hastens Fatalis Bluestone Pendant The Crusher

Now.. Lets ignore those builds and say it was actually a good power vs a good defense build. My friends like putting defense on Thor, I do too but I also like power.

What usually would win in a similar skill level?

I spelled a lot of items wrong. Dammit

Zilby or Bullfrog or someone else can tell me I'm wrong. That said, weird build (more his build than yours, but yours too.

First, power vs. defense? 1 strong D item is probably plenty for Thor. Perhaps Hide of the Urchin, because it provides both protections and health. If you wanted 2, you could go for individual items (e.g. Breastplate of Valor + Bulwark of Hope), or go Hide of the Urchin + Shifter's Shield (or Spirit Robe for the CDR). If he didn't build any defense and just went full power, I think you'd probably win a 1 v 1 match...just a random guess on my part.

Now, let's look at the builds. Yours first. Warrior Tabi + Jotunn's Wrath. Great. No problem there. Void Shield + Titan's Bane later. Void's protection reduction is going to partially decrease the effect of a % penetration item like Titan's Bane. It's not that it won't work, just that it won't work as efficiently, and so I personally wouldn't get that combo. Pestilence + Brawler's Beat Stick. That's some crazy counter-heal there, and I don't think it's necessary, especially vs. Chaac. I'd bypass Pestilence and go for Brawler's Beat Stick only for the anti-heal, especially because the high power and flat pen are perfect for Thor's kit. So, my own build would probably be (not including Bumba's Mask:

• Warrior Tabi, Jotunn's Wrath, Breastplate of Valor, Bulwark of Hope, Brawler's Beat Stick, Titan's Bane (lots of tanky enemies)
• Warrior Tabi, Jotunn's Wrath, Hide of the Urchin, Brawler's Beat Stick or The Crusher, Titan's Bane, Shifter's Shield or Spirit Robe depending on need.

Now, as for the enemy build...I personally don't know what the heck he was trying to do. I'd never build Hastened Fatalis on him. He also doesn't even focus on Jotunn's Wrath. His weird build might be another reason you beat him.

Full power (if he actually built power), I'd probably go Warrior Tabi, Jotunn's Wrath, The Crusher, Brawler's Beat Stick, Shifter's Shield, and I don't honestly know for the 6th item. But yeah, not Fatalis. Maybe the opposite, and get Frostbound Hammer for the health and CC.

Okay Z/Bull, go ahead and demolish my build suggestion. =P

Wow that was a pretty awesome reply.. I always thought the penetration would stack...well not stack but you know what i mean.. so I could cut through their defense a bit easier.
Ill take the anti healing ideas into mind. That Chaac was actually sitting around corners of the jungle healing himself and coming back in so I was trying to make sure that it would take him longer to heal up.
I also built him like that cause I saw Homiefe use Void Shield in a recent game.

@Bran, your suggested builds are pretty much fine. I wouldn't use The Crusher on Thor, I just don't think it's going to be as useful as Brawler's Beat Stick 99% of the time (at the very least you can stop their ADC from lifestealing). Depending on the meta Transcendence can also be a decent grab, albeit with Jotunn's Wrath and Breastplate of Valor atm mana isn't as much of an issue. Honestly though Void Shield + Titan's Bane isn't the worst thing ever, you do lose 6.333 penetration that Titan's Bane would otherwise give you, but depending on the matchup early game it could be useful.

As for the op, I would always build Thor with some defenses and power, he's best that way. At the very least grab a physical defense item for the enemy ADC and jungler, as well as towers, creeps and objectives.

Keep in mind, Thor does most of his damage with his 1 and 3, rather than basic attacks.

If Chaac was doing that, and you were specifically looking to counter him (and help your solo laner out) you might think about getting Brawler's Beat Stick earlier, and hitting him with your 1 from range when he retreated to heal. It has a stronger anti-heal, and doesn't require you to be on him for the aura to work on Pestilence. You might also consider Curse at level 12.

So with Void Shield, well, I'm probably best pointing you to this KingScuba penetration guide. Also, Bullfrog had a big explanation on this, but I don't remember where that is...maybe he can point you to it.

That said, I can summarize a bit. Let's give a base protection of 100, just for ease of calculations. Penetration hierarchy goes like this: % protection reduction (e.g. Demonic Grip/ The Executioner), flat protection reduction (e.g. Void Shield), % penetration (e.g. Titan's Bane/ Obsidian Shard), flat penetration (e.g. Asi, Brawler's Beat Stick, Jotunn's Wrath, etc.).

In this case, you built Void Shield and Titan's Bane. (You also built Brawler's Beat Stick, but it's more important to consider mixing protection redution and penetration) With the 100 protection, Void Shield takes off 20. So when it's in effect, your target has 80 protection. Then, Titan's Bane would kick in. It takes 33% off, and so we're talking 33% of 80, which is about 26. The end protection is thus 54. If you just used Titan's Bane, it would take 33% off of 100, which would be 33, or an end protection of 67. Sure, 54 is lower than 67, but you can see even at a relatively low protection of 100, Titan's effect has been decreased by 7. Not that much here, but against a tanky target, and if it was a % protection reduction item like The Executioner, it would be even less efficient.

So it's an idea of efficiency. Is it absolutely wrong to build those two together? No, they can have their time and place, and perhaps with Thor, it can do well because he likes to be up close when using his Berzerker Barrage. But you won't get that effect from further range, so that's something to consider.

The other thing with protection reduction items is that when they're active, they can increase the damage of any other teammate of the same type (phys/magical). So if you've got a hunter and warrior on your team, you're helping them out when engaging the target yourself.

Finally, I want to say that building as much protection as you did is also not necessarily bad. If, for example, you had a Support that likes to go more bruiser (like Bacchus), and your warrior didn't build too many protections, having you go more tanky yourself can help your team overall, by allowing you to also initiate for your team in some circumstances. Just want to balance things, because you also want to do damage as a Jungler, so you don't want to build full protections.

Not sure if I sort of talked in circles. Hope this made at least some sense...lol.

Here, a quick example of higher inefficiencies:

The Executioner (patch 3.11) + Titan's Bane.

200 protection
Exe reduces by 36% at max stacks, takes 72 protections away for 128 protection.
Titan's reduces by 33%, takes away 42 for ~86 protection.

Titan's by itself would take away 33% of 200, which is 66...so in this case, you're taking away 24 less protections from Titan's when using Exe with it.

I guess in the end, it's not a huge amount...I just don't like seeing inefficiencies when possible.

As for the original question :
Who would win between a Thor that builds only power versus a Thor that builds defense ?
Regardless of skills, if we look only at numbers.


Short answer : Defense Thor would barely win the duel.


Long answer :

In that scenario, I assumed those following :
- Both Thor start at full health, level 20.
- Both Thor would hit the "double-tap" of Mjolnir's Attunement
- Both Thor would hit all ticks of Berserker Barrage
- Both Thor only get 10 power from their passive (it's a 1v1)
- Since it's unlikely to have the first Thor uses his ultimate and then the other uses his own ult back to the target, I removed the ultimate from the equation.
- Even with full CDR, only 1 ability rotation for each, the rest are basic attacks.

Power Thor uses this build (regardless if it's a good build or not, that's the one maximizing power and penetration)
Warrior Tabi / Transcendence / Jotunn's Wrath / Brawler's Beat Stick / The Crusher / Titan's Bane

Defense Thor uses this bruiser build
Warrior Tabi / Jotunn's Wrath / Breastplate of Valor / Bulwark of Hope / Hide of the Urchin / Titan's Bane

I won't go into much details, but after both abilities and basic attacks, Bulwark of Hope's passive procs, and that's enough for Defense Thor to secure the kill.


If Defense Thor is less tanky :

Warrior Tabi / Jotunn's Wrath / Breastplate of Valor / Bulwark of Hope / Brawler's Beat Stick / Titan's Bane
Defense Thor still barely wins, thanks to Bulwark of Hope passive

Warrior Tabi / Jotunn's Wrath / Breastplate of Valor / Brawler's Beat Stick / Hide of the Urchin / Titan's Bane
Defense Thor wins, because he nows deals more damage than Power Thor and has more health.

Warrior Tabi / Jotunn's Wrath / Breastplate of Valor / The Crusher / Brawler's Beat Stick / Titan's Bane
Defense Thor wins, because he nows deals more damage than Power Thor.


In order for the Power Thor to win this duel, that would require that Defense Thor build more magical defense and less physical defense.

Also, I didn't consider other defensive options viable for Thor, like Spirit Robe, Void Shield or Shifter's Shield,
but I think the final result would be the same.

There's the Bullfrog answer I was waiting for =P

A little bit of defense can be deadly. There is still kinda the reason why I find it rediculous that in smite adc don't really have one while in LoL the adcs are known to pick one (well mostly because mercurial scimitar is considered a defensive because of its beads effect)