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Balancing Discussion: The Real Deal

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Forum » General Discussion » Balancing Discussion: The Real Deal 384 posts - page 1 of 39
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Jordenito » July 23, 2014 8:41am | Report
The goal of this thread is to go over gods that we have found in need of balance, reach an agreement of the changes that need to be made, and then, finally, send a letter to Hi-Rez Kelly, so that hopefully, we won't be just wishful-thinkingbalancing.


Rules


Please read all the rules down below. I know it's a pain, but for us to have a proper, fruitful and organized thread, you must know all of them.

  • We will be balancing gods solely according to Conquest. It is the main gamemode of SMITE, and while Arena is always nice to play, it isn't the main focus.

  • This thread is solely about balancing gods. We do not discuss anything other than that, includinhg skins, items, game modes or anything else.

  • We will be going through each and every god listed below, one at a time. In each list we start from A-Z. You may not skip to another god until we have finished with the current one.

  • We will not discuss Ao Kuang as he is going to get a rework.

  • We will not discuss new gods until a newer one is released, as there are always readjustments and furthermore balances after a new god is released.

  • We are not looking to reinvent the game. If we do so, the letter to Hi-Rez Kelly will be meaningless. We want to handle what we currently have in the game.

  • If you are not happy with the decisions / ideas that were agreed in previous gods that we have finished, you may only re-discuss them only spoilers, and name the spoilers accordingly.

  • If you think that a certain god should be added to one of the lists below, you may only say that in spoilers and name them accordingly. You may not argue to move a god that is already listed to a different list.

  • If many people find that we need to re-discuss a certain god that we have supposedly finished discussing, then we will reopen that god's discussion after we have finished discussing the current one.

  • Be respectful towards each other and each other's ideas. Some of them may be just prototype ideas that people have pulled straight from their minds to maybe give a new lead, and not so deeply-thought, which is okay.

  • Do not take any criticism or feedback personally. They are targeted towards ideas and not their creators. This is considering people follow the rule above.

  • Try to be as objective as you can. Obviously, as human beings, we all have subjective feelings towards almost everything and everyone. That is okay. But if Bastet is your waifu favorite character in SMITE, try to look at her from a different perspective, rather than "She needs to be able to jump back while under CC again!".

  • You must understand the logic of the game. Granted, there are many contradictions in the game that just don't make sense, and we are here to try to fix some of them. For example, if we are reworking / balancing a Guardian, you must know that Guardians should not have pure damage abilities that have to supportive / defensive use.

  • Try to write clearly. Use question marks, commas, periods, write different ideas / things in different paragraphs. Also, and this is optional but recommended, the use a little bit of BBCoding could make a whole lot of difference in understanding your ideas, like using underlined text, and some more BBCoding would make it much more pleasing to read.

    recommended bbcoding template





Gods Lists


There will be 3 lists.
The first is for gods that need a full / almost full rework, as they are nearly if not completely nonviable.
The second is for gods that need quite a buff / nerf.
The third is for gods that need some tweaking.



Reworks

  • arachne summary

  • Ares summary





Buffs / Nerfs





Tweaks


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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Jordenito » July 23, 2014 9:04am | Report
Arachne



Arachne has been a problem for a long time. Back in the day her early game was the cheesiest and absurdly powerful, being able to kill any god with 3-4 basic attacks thanks to her poison. But, as always - before and nowadays, her late game was and still is so bad that if you got through to the mid - late game, it's basically a 4v5.


But, with the many nerfs that she has gotten, her early game is now a little bit above average, and still, her mid and late game are stupidly weak.



Problems


Her passive, poison claws, are only useful in the early game, mainly through levels 1-5, and then drops down drastically, because of its poor scaling and the increase in auto attack damage through many items, mainly critical strike chance items.


Broodlings are also a little bit strong in the early game but fall off too hard in the late game.


Drain Life is an old skill that is very awkward and weird to use. And late game you will just get bursted down immediately if you jump on people. This needs to go away.


tangled web is okay, though it could use a slight buff.


She is too much reliant on her Cocoon. This ability has almost zero counterplay, but without it, Arachne has no initiation and looses everything she has.



I think she should stay an early game Assassin. We don't have many early game gods in SMITE, and we could use one. But, try to aim to not create a completely and utterly ******ed early game, which just allows her to live in the enemy jungle because no one can get close to her, and don't make her late game worth nearly nothing.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Subzero008 » July 23, 2014 9:55am | Report
Poison Claws: Make it have 5 + level base damage. That should help mitigate some of its issues without causing HiRez to have a heart attack over something resembling innovation.

Broodlings, I think, need only a slight tweak. They're the basis of her scary early game, but drop off to uselessness late game, but NOT because of their damage. Their damage is fine; 2-3 nests do a significant number on squishies. My problem is how any mage any god nowawadays, can kill every one of them with any damaging ability, making them worthless. The broodlings need either higher scaling late game health, or damage reduction against abilities.

Estimates


Drain Life is fine in concept - if the game was like that Smite wouldn't be the POS it is now - but it's a relic of the past. I suggest a minor rework, replacing this skill with Cocoon.

Cocoon would have 20/19/18/17/16 CD and stun for 1 second, but have a reduction in projectile speed, and lose the ability to go through walls. This will be her only hard CC in her basic kit, and is her substitute for her gap closer. I still intend for her lack of mobility to be a weakness.

Skill 3 will also get a slight rework, reducing the slow to 25/30/35/40/45%, but increasing her own speed and the speed of her spiderlings by the same amount. General mobility is always nice, and rather necessary to escape and all that.

Her ultimate could be a rework of Drain Life, where Arachne suppresses a target within melee range for 1/1,25/1.5/1.75/2.0 seconds, dealing X damage over the time period and healing for (all/none/some) of the damage dealt (or a separate amount not tied to damage dealt). However, what makes this skill deserving of a 90 second cooldown is her ability to move the target while they are suppressed.

Late game, her ult still won't be too great, being a single target ability and such. But she'll make a good semi-support in teamfights, but her damage should still definitely fall off.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Devampi » July 23, 2014 10:01am | Report
Note:
I try to help with the things I know. Sometimes I can't think of something quick for a change or some sort of new skill.

Jordenito wrote:

Her passive, poison claws, are only useful in the early game, mainly through levels 1-5, and then drops down drastically, because of its poor scaling and the increase in auto attack damage through many items, mainly critical strike chance items.


maybe improve the scaling on it an bit or just change it too something more usefull

Jordenito wrote:

Broodlings are also a little bit strong in the early game but fall off too hard in the late game.


This is an ability she is so reliant on for the slow. (the webs don't do enough). this is an ability that shouldn't be changed too something else. For it too be more viable late game it needs a buff

Jordenito wrote:

Drain Life is an old skill that is very awkward and weird to use. And late game you will just get bursted down immediately if you jump on people. This needs to go away.


this ability should be changed too something else. It doesn't do any damage too even heal you. before you finished your dead. It should be changed too something else or it needs too get something like reduced damage when in use.

Jordenito wrote:

tangled web is okay, though it could use a slight buff.


Adding the cripple on it seems a good plan (don't know how that played)

Jordenito wrote:

She is too much reliant on her Cocoon. This ability has almost zero counterplay, but without it, Arachne has no initiation and looses everything she has.


jup without this someone can easily back up or it's getting countered by magi's blessing and she can't get close enough. (the webs are worthless because someone will just use their escape). I only have no idea how too change it for a good ult. IMO they should change the ult too a ability so she has a gap closer (reducing damage and the through walls thing).

Jordenito wrote:

I think she should stay an early game Assassin. We don't have many early game gods in SMITE, and we could use one. But, try to aim to not create a completely and utterly ******ed early game, which just allows her to live in the enemy jungle because no one can get close to her, and don't make her late game worth nearly nothing.


I totally agree she needs to be early game. I don't think she needs so many buffs early but more for her late (scaling the skills in some sort it's better for late).

Devampi
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Devampi » July 23, 2014 10:15am | Report
Sasquatch180 wrote:



Special Delivery should not be able to go through minions.


Radius should be decreased (perhaps to the size of He Bo's Waterspout?)





I just want old Guan Yu back, or at least his old ultimate.





Towers and Phoenixes should not register them as actual minions





The cats should be "leashed" to Bastet, or at least have a certain distance where they'll stop chasing enemies.


uhm we are now currently discussing Arachne (see rules and stuff)

Devampi
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Jordenito » July 23, 2014 11:31am | Report
subzero quote


Do you intend on keeping the physical power scaling on Poison Claws? or do you intend on granting her more than just "+1 * level" bonus for the poison?


I have a solution for Broodlings. Simply reduce the damage they take from AoE sources. if they were to take, I dunno, maybe 50% damage from all AoE sources instead of 100%, then you'll need more than a single Suppress The Insolent or Celestial Beam kill 10 little spiders.



For the new Cocoon, I think a projectile speed of about Ullr's Thrown Axe would be appropriate. I would also reduce the width slightly. I suppose that with the new projectile speed, which counts for both the cast and the pull after the hit, you could actually use Beads while being pulled, so it'll have some counterplay.



The new ultimate idea seems a bit, I dunno. Early game, I don't see it doing much. 1s in which you control the target and damage it? Fearless would seem to do the same job, minus the heal. Maybe make it apply full poison, or deal additional overtime damage and refresh the Poison Claws. I wish they hadn't released Serqet. If the duration would be 1.6/1.7/1.8/1.9/2s, it would be more effective early game, and for an early game Assassin, that's all she really needs.


Devampi wrote:
Adding the cripple on it seems a good plan (don't know how that played)


Adding a cripple on tangled web would simply make it too powerful. It has a wide area and is easily deployed with a long range. It's a nigh-guaranteed gank and would do too much.

Increasing her movement speed as well as her spiders' seems a more fitting.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Subzero008 » July 23, 2014 11:44am | Report
Jordenito wrote:

Do you intend on keeping the physical power scaling on Poison Claws? or do you intend on granting her more than just "+1 * level" bonus for the poison?
Yes.


Jordenito wrote:
I have a solution for Broodlings. Simply reduce the damage they take from AoE sources. if they were to take, I dunno, maybe 50% damage from all AoE sources instead of 100%, then you'll need more than a single Suppress The Insolent or Celestial Beam kill 10 little spiders.
Uh, that's pretty much what I said...



Jordenito wrote:
For the new Cocoon, I think a projectile speed of about Ullr's Thrown Axe would be appropriate. I would also reduce the width slightly. I suppose that with the new projectile speed, which counts for both the cast and the pull after the hit, you could actually use Beads while being pulled, so it'll have some counterplay.
Perfection.



Jordenito wrote:
The new ultimate idea seems a bit, I dunno. Early game, I don't see it doing much. 1s in which you control the target and damage it? Fearless would seem to do the same job, minus the heal. Maybe make it apply full poison, or deal additional overtime damage and refresh the Poison Claws. I wish they hadn't released Serqet. If the duration would be 1.6/1.7/1.8/1.9/2s, it would be more effective early game, and for an early game Assassin, that's all she really needs.
Better idea, make it 1.5 seconds flat. On top of the instant poison, that's a good idea. You can also make it pretty damaging, if you like. Maybe 200/300/400/500/600 (+100% of your physical power) as damage, and 100% of damage dealt is healed. That should encourage building raw power and penetration over crits, and it makes her a pretty scary duelist. Late game, it won't deal as much damage, but the suppression itself will grant it tons of utility.

Edit: Make that 70/100/130/160/190 damage (+40% of your physical power) every 0.5 seconds, for 1.5 seconds.

Editedit: I really don't want to make a CC that can't be beads'd more than 1.5 seconds.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Jordenito » July 23, 2014 12:05pm | Report
Jordenito wrote:

Do you intend on keeping the physical power scaling on Poison Claws? or do you intend on granting her more than just "+1 * level" bonus for the poison?
Yes.

Subzero008 wrote:
Yes.

You troll... towards which sentence is the "yes" referred?

Subzero008 wrote:
Uh, that's pretty much what I said...

Woops, didn't see that last bit of your paragraph.

Subzero008 wrote:
Better idea, make it 1.5 seconds flat. On top of the instant poison, that's a good idea. You can also make it pretty damaging, if you like. Maybe 200/300/400/500/600 (+100% of your physical power) as damage, and 100% of damage dealt is healed. That should encourage building raw power and penetration over crits, and it makes her a pretty scary duelist. Late game, it won't deal as much damage, but the suppression itself will grant it tons of utility.

Edit: Make that 70/100/130/160/190 damage (+40% of your physical power) every 0.5 seconds, for 1.5 seconds.

Editedit: I really don't want to make a CC that can't be beads'd more than 1.5 seconds.

Agreed.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Subzero008 » July 23, 2014 12:32pm | Report
Yes, keep the physical power contributions.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Subzero008 » July 23, 2014 1:04pm | Report
One more thing: It needs to be able to grab minions.

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