An alternative to auto-archiving old guides/builds could be to make the pre-season 4 builds/guides an expandable list, and by default it will just show say "Season 3 Guides" for example and you have to expand/click on it to view guides for that season. This projects way more focus onto the Season 4 guides/builds.
Putting Season 3 guides into tabs is not necessary since season 4 guides are already first. That would just be more work. Maybe with more seasons, it would be helpful.
Wayne linked me here, so I figured I should drop my feedback. Most of you have probably seen it on Reddit already, but I guess it's good to have it in both places for consistency.
While Zilby and I were recording a discussion on 4.13 patch notes, we thought we'd also discuss the topic of SF website improvement. We specifically look at an in-depth response of ideas from Shlappz (very much appreciated) and just discuss our thoughts in general.
What if the Items and Skills chapter for example, were forced to be a chapter in a guide in order for it to be a "guide", and each chapter had its own character or word count needed?
So instead of -
"The entire guide needs 2.5k characters and it'll be a guide"
It'd be -
"The Items chapter needs 1.5k characters and the Skills chapter needs 1.5k characters and it'll be a guide"
If you don't fill in anything inside the chapters, they're automatically removed when publishing (can obviously be re-added), and if your character / word count is not enough, it'll be considered a "build"?
I think that if people want to have their guide recognized as a guide, they'd have to put time into what they put on the screen, and if they don't care about it too much they can release it like they can now, but it'd be seen as a "build". Basically a more refined version of the system that's currently in place.
About a moderation system, what about a 'hold-before-release' system?
Basically, whenever a person creates a guide and publishes it, the guide is held back for a few days. During this time, the people who maintain the site, and I'd be thinking Editor and up, could have a look at it. Once they're done, they can give feedback to the creator to improve their guide.
Here's where the big thing comes in:
If the author reads the feedback and changes his/her guide to improve it, the person who initially reviewed it can check again, and give more feedback. This up until a point that the reviewer deems a guide "worthy" to be publicly released.
If the author doesn't read the feedback in a reasonably time-frame, it'd be acceptable to take the guide as "abandoned" or just a quick creation for the sake of quickly pushing something out. At this point, the reviewer of the guide can then check if there are a few or any guides of that god. If there are, the guide is kept invisible, and the author is notified and should they ever come back, they can fix it. If there are no guides or barely any guides (e.g. only 1) for that god, the guide is temporarily shown and flagged as "barebones" (or the likes), and will be made invisible again once there's enough "good" guides to cover up for it.
Who reviews the guides should be up to you. Heck, you should all get together and share thoughts on the guide with one another. And if you can't come up with a good decision, you could ask a regular member who you know is experienced in SMITE for some assistance.
Note that this system shouldn't be a permanent thing. It'd work now since the amount of guides published every now and then isn't all that high. Should the website ever rise in popularity and more guides start rolling in, obviously a new system would need to be used. That is, if you even consider any of my rambling here useful.
I think it's a good idea to recognize what we would consider core or at least generally important. First we'd need to define what a guide is meant to do. This probably means something different to different people.
If everyone (admins especially) came to the consensus of those required topics, then a minimum word count for each of those sections, personally, is a GREAT idea in my mind. THAT, more than anything else, seems like it would help weed out weaker efforts. Doesn't address quality, but that's a separate issue and I like the direction of this idea.
So here's my summary of what I'd personally want from a guide:
Guide expectations
Gameplay mode: Already proposed and supported by multiple people, having an option to define which mode(s) the guide targets would be helpful. An option to check off all applicable modes would be perfect. Arena only? No problem, just have it be searchable that way, and make it clear to EVERYONE. Depending on people to define that in their guides via title or in the intro isn't good enough. To make it more difficult to just check all modes, we'd have to think about how to implement that.
Target Audience: At minimum, newer players should be able to get some good direction from a guide. More experienced players are less likely to read the fine print, as they're more comfortable with the smaller details. This means information about the basics is required. Higher level information is optional. So...which would be basic subjects?
Introduction: let the reader know who you are, what format you play on (PC/console), and any other info you want to state...this is already generally existing, but providing an automatically populating template/skeleton (Shlapps' idea) that people can use as a tool (or just delete if they want to use their own) would be handy.
Abilities: just reading on the ability description itself is not really enough. For a newer player, understanding how and when to use abilities is important, so explaining at least the basics would be key. Higher level tips for combos or situations can go here or elsewhere, but having a minimum # of characters would help make sure there's enough written.
Items: to gain an understanding of the build items listed at the top, an explanation of WHY these are chosen is important. Some experienced players may feel this is unnecessary, but I think a ton of discussion can be had for ANY build, not only with regard to choices and how it fits the god, but also build order and what each item can do for you at the specific point of the build. Counter-building, by itself, could be a huge topic. Almost no god should be built the same EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Others: well, I think those would be my minimum requirements. Everything else is nice to have...Conquest specific gameplay tips for different stages of the game, warding, etc. But I don't consider those essential. Anything else you think is essential that I missed?
What about builds?
As for builds, as Shlappz said, a standard build would be very open...no overall requirements for anything regarding word count or other content, other than the item listing at the top. If people wanted to elaborate more without having the restrictions of a guide, they could write as much as they wanted. That seems simple and straightforward.
Moderation System
An automated bot would be a pain. I'm not a coder by any means, so this would fall on others' shoulders, and I don't want to make others develop something that may or may not work well.
Zero's solution of minimum characters for individual, required chapters seems like a better way to enforce quantity of content. But quality is another aspect that it wouldn't solve.
So...Zero's "hold before release" idea? Well, that would still require a designated person or group to review before it was approved. This still goes against the spirit of the site, to a degree. Anyone can make a build/guide, right? Well, what if I see it, and I straight up KNOW it's a horrible build, or the explanations are really poor and incorrect, but the person spent a lot of time creating it? Now it won't get published. Yes, that would help quality on the site...but I don't think the admins would agree to such a thing. And I'm conflicted about this. I don't want to deny/reject anything, but I want higher quality. WTF WOULD I DO?!? I don't like that position. Could I do it? Could Zilby do it? Could you do it? Probably. But what might be passable to one might not be to another. Too subjective in a way.
And the other aspect...time. Some guides might be very extensive. And on top of that, you want us to re-review when they make corrections? There is sooooo much time put into that system. It's a GOOD idea...don't get me wrong. But I just don't see it as feasible. The rest of that process is too convoluted as well to be easily implemented.
For the current state of the site, this might be workable for just me, or a couple of us to handle. But even then, probably not. I do note your italicized note at the bottom, and that's an important point. The purpose of this is to get better quality guides, grow the site, improve the reputation. Higher traffic will mean more guides, more reviews, etc. Good point.
But damn if, on the editor side of things, I'm the only one that consistently provides feedback on published guides. No way I get a commitment from others to cover all guides. I can't commit to that myself. Sad, but true. I need help.
Gameplay mode: Already proposed and supported by multiple people, having an option to define which mode(s) the guide targets would be helpful. An option to check off all applicable modes would be perfect. Arena only? No problem, just have it be searchable that way, and make it clear to EVERYONE. Depending on people to define that in their guides via title or in the intro isn't good enough. To make it more difficult to just check all modes, we'd have to think about how to implement that.
How about a bar above the guide, where the player has to tick off all modes that the guide applies to? If no box is ticked at all, the author won't be able to publish the guide.
Target Audience: At minimum, newer players should be able to get some good direction from a guide. More experienced players are less likely to read the fine print, as they're more comfortable with the smaller details. This means information about the basics is required. Higher level information is optional. So...which would be basic subjects?
A build that can help newer players on their way, how the god should generally be played (e.g. Loki isn't meant to frontline and tank damage), and how to use abilities most effectively would be basic subjects.
Introduction: let the reader know who you are, what format you play on (PC/console), and any other info you want to state...this is already generally existing, but providing an automatically populating template/skeleton (Shlapps' idea) that people can use as a tool (or just delete if they want to use their own) would be handy.
Exactly, certain chapter should be given straight from the start. Perhaps in each chapter, when a chapter is empty, there'd be a line explaining what you should write in that chapter.
(E.g. the items chapter would have a line of text saying: "Describe your build here, and why these items work so well for this god / in your build.")
Abilities: just reading on the ability description itself is not really enough. For a newer player, understanding how and when to use abilities is important, so explaining at least the basics would be key. Higher level tips for combos or situations can go here or elsewhere, but having a minimum # of characters would help make sure there's enough written.
Yup, as I've now mentioned in point #2 - minimum / basic information required.
Items: to gain an understanding of the build items listed at the top, an explanation of WHY these are chosen is important. Some experienced players may feel this is unnecessary, but I think a ton of discussion can be had for ANY build, not only with regard to choices and how it fits the god, but also build order and what each item can do for you at the specific point of the build. Counter-building, by itself, could be a huge topic. Almost no god should be built the same EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Yup, as I've now (also, lol) mentioned in point #2 - minimum / basic information required.
Others: well, I think those would be my minimum requirements. Everything else is nice to have...Conquest specific gameplay tips for different stages of the game, warding, etc. But I don't consider those essential. Anything else you think is essential that I missed?
Perhaps a chapter would automatically be created for the mode that you ticked (read above, #1 - Gameplay mode) where you would write basic information on how to approach said mode(s). This chapter could also be enforced, making it so that people won't tick random boxes just to have a mode applied and call it a day, as they'd have to actually write up on it.
As for builds, as Shlappz said, a standard build would be very open...no overall requirements for anything regarding word count or other content, other than the item listing at the top. If people wanted to elaborate more without having the restrictions of a guide, they could write as much as they wanted. That seems simple and straightforward.
How about giving an example of a fitting "basic" build? It's well-known that boots, for example, are essential. This would allow guide creators to see what a build would potentially look like. This shouldn't keep them from creating their own builds, but it should, hopefully, act as a reference for a user to compare their build with, and in that way try to figure out if their build is somewhat realistic (e.g. no Deathbringer as first item).
Also, the guide item builder should have a system that it'd only show items that a god can actually use. For example, if I choose a Physical god, the guide item builder shouldn't allow me to build magical power items.
Quoted:
Moderation System Quote cut, too long hha
It would take a lot of time. That's why the entire team of Editor+ should work together, unless they could care less, we still can't force anything.
This way, you could split the work. Person A does the introduction chapter, person B does the skills chapter, etc... A chapter is too large for 1 person? Split the work in 2, or even 3.
As for "not allowing guide writers to create their content", that's a yes and no. This isn't denying their content to be published, but instead a way to help them improve their content to make it even better, before releasing it.
If a guide creator is somewhat dedicated, they'll accept the feedback gladly, as it'll only improve their guide and improve their guidecrafting skill for future guides.
You know what, what instead of not showing it, we place it in a completely separate position on the website. A place that would just be as accessible as the guides we currently have, but anyone who reads those guides will be informed that the guides are "still being improved", so to say. (Basically a fancier way of saying that that's the place where the "weaker" guides can be found.) Their content will still be visible, but if a guide creator wants his guide to be placed with the cool kids, they have the option to improve it. If not, they can leave it as it is.
My thoughts on your thoughts on my idea. I might've missed something, let me know if that's the case. And do let me know what you think of this.
How about a bar above the guide, where the player has to tick off all modes that the guide applies to? If no box is ticked at all, the author won't be able to publish the guide.
Issue is someone just making a guide, they only play Arena, and they check off all modes...problem isn't so much making sure a mode is assigned...it's them populating it for all modes just to get more views. Agree?
Exactly, certain chapter should be given straight from the start. Perhaps in each chapter, when a chapter is empty, there'd be a line explaining what you should write in that chapter.
(E.g. the items chapter would have a line of text saying: "Describe your build here, and why these items work so well for this god / in your build.")
Perhaps a chapter would automatically be created for the mode that you ticked (read above, #1 - Gameplay mode) where you would write basic information on how to approach said mode(s). This chapter could also be enforced, making it so that people won't tick random boxes just to have a mode applied and call it a day, as they'd have to actually write up on it.
How about giving an example of a fitting "basic" build? It's well-known that boots, for example, are essential. This would allow guide creators to see what a build would potentially look like. This shouldn't keep them from creating their own builds, but it should, hopefully, act as a reference for a user to compare their build with, and in that way try to figure out if their build is somewhat realistic (e.g. no Deathbringer as first item).
Personally, I'm less concerned with builds overall. This might be good, but on builds, we can still rely on the voting system, maybe. Making a reference build for each god would be a time sink.
Also, the guide item builder should have a system that it'd only show items that a god can actually use. For example, if I choose a Physical god, the guide item builder shouldn't allow me to build magical power items.
But then how would people make troll builds? XD Yes...this is important. The in-game builder does this. So does Smite Builder and others. We need this implemented.
Regarding the moderation comment, your suggestion requires decent timing, and a lot of coordination that isn't easily possible with the tools on the website. What you're talking about, in a way that would actually work, would be an automated system basically called a "work flow." Once a guide is submitted, the system would notify the first person to review X section(s), then when they completed it, it would notify the next person to continue the process. Without an automated system, this would just be me having to manually check for new guides, and if I'm the initiator, I'd have to say "hey Zero, got this section done, please review the next section," etc. If you're not on top of it, or you're busy, or the next person is busy, and so on, a person may not see their stuff fully reviewed for days. Personally, I'd be pissed or would not even bother to submit...once I get something out, I want it done and out there.
You know what, what instead of not showing it, we place it in a completely separate position on the website. A place that would just be as accessible as the guides we currently have, but anyone who reads those guides will be informed that the guides are "still being improved", so to say. (Basically a fancier way of saying that that's the place where the "weaker" guides can be found.) Their content will still be visible, but if a guide creator wants his guide to be placed with the cool kids, they have the option to improve it. If not, they can leave it as it is.
Still think this would be something maybe difficult to implement, and something the admins probably wouldn't prefer. Would like their own take on these various ideas.
I just watched your video and I love it. Only once before have I been mentioned in a video, and I have to say, it makes me feel pretty good. Probably better than it should, heh. Nothing like validation from others to soothe your insecurities. Anyway, I figured I'll make a follow up post to address your thoughts on my thoughts.
It seems the parts you didn't like were (a) being too influential in the creation of guides, (b) moderation, and (c) the Streams page.
Honestly, I think that as long as you go all in with fully separating Builds and Guides and clarifying the differences between them, most of your general problems will be solved. The amount of content on the site will greatly increase, the reputation of the site will improve (albeit over time), and more people will use the site and find it easier to use. If you take anything away from this discussion, let it be this paragraph. Assuming you do this, remember to stop calling things "build guides", because it's too confusing for new users.
In response to (a), a lot of the guides that exist now, that are not so great, probably would've been Builds in my system. It's just that they didn't have that option at the time, so they overextended themselves and made a bad guide. Over time, the ability to make a simple Build will weed out a lot of incoming trash guides, so it's possible some of my ideas won't even be necessary.
Continuing that thought, I think (a) and (b) tie together. If you want higher quality guides, you need some way to check and make sure that they're of good quality. If you want to give guide-makers ultimate freedom, that means giving them the freedom to create bad guides. I don't think ultimate freedom is a good idea, but you're not wrong to be wary of making it too strict. And remember the logic, like you said in the video, is it better to mislead people, or not lead them at all?
Even in my original idea, moderation was minimal. I only meant for someone to take a quick glance over guides and ensure the skeleton was completed and that it wasn't an ugly grey wall of text. There was never any call for you to rate builds or guides, because like you said, that's not really fair or logical, because you're not the authority on what's good in the meta, and it would also take too long.
In response to (b), there are plenty of ways to ensure good quality content without manual moderation. I already talked about bots and back end site code. It depends on the direction you go with my skeleton idea and the overall level of quality you want to enforce on Guides, but some small level of manual moderation may still be unavoidable.
You could take the middle ground and create a skeleton, but make it optional but highly recommended. Assuming you take that route, I would pair it with my other idea of creating rules and posting them somewhere visible. Then, I would implement a "Report" button where people can call out what guides are not following the rules.
In this case, manual moderation has been reduced even further and most of the work is left to normal users to report stuff. Then, all you moderators have to do is decide whether the guides that get reported are guilty of being incomplete or being grey walls of text. Even then, you're not going to take any drastic measures. You'd simply leave an official comment saying that the guide is not up to par and may be received negatively. You could pair it with an official tag that appears on the guide, letting users know before they click that the guide has been deemed "not up to par", but that's not really a necessary feature, just a helpful extra one. If the guide-maker ignores your warnings, then negative votes from users will probably cover the rest.
The only problem I could see here is abuse of the report button, but I'm sure there are ways around that too, like threatening users who abuse it with a ban.
I think taking the middle ground might be the best idea.
That reminds me of something I didn't mention before. Make comments more visible. Instead of having to click a button and go to a different page, let the comments appear at the bottom of the page, so you see them right after finishing reading a guide. It's more fluid, more intuitive, and overall easier to navigate. The button at the top could be repurposed into a button that skips to the bottom of the page.
In response to (c), like I said, if you're not going to rework SmiteTV, you might as well remove it. No one really cares about that feature either way, honestly. You could still have a separate link to Hirez's twitch channel somewhere if you want to maintain the facade of being connected.
I would maybe consider supplementing the removal of a feature with the addition of a new one, like Tierlists or a site reorganization, just for good measure. Life lesson: Always pair bad news with good news. Considering no one really cares, that's probably unnecessary, but it's a good excuse to add Tierlists. (hint: I really want tierlists)
Something else I didn't really mention before was the idea of a chatroom. I actually don't like this idea. If you want a chatroom, simply spruce up and promote your discord server more. Even then, most people come here anonymously to view builds and guides, not to chat with others. I think it could've worked in conjunction with a Streams page, but on its own it just feels out of place. Not to mention that chat rooms require moderation. Who's going to do that if not one of you guys or maybe a bot?
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