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Hunter's Blessing
Spiked Gauntlet
Healing Potion
Multi Potion
Odysseus' Bow for 
Toxic Blade, 
Silverbranch Bow for 
Titan's Bane.
Can swap Odysseus' Bow for Toxic Blade, Silverbranch Bow for Titan's Bane.
Devourer's Gauntlet
Ninja Tabi
Atalanta's Bow
Qin's Sais
Odysseus' Bow
Silverbranch Bow
Berserker's Shield for 
Asi or Toxic Blade.
Can swap Berserker's Shield for Asi or Toxic Blade.
Elixir of Speed
Devourer's Gauntlet
Berserker's Shield
Atalanta's Bow
Qin's Sais
Odysseus' Bow
Silverbranch Bow
Poisoned Star for 
Shadowsteel Shuriken.
Can swap Poisoned Star for Shadowsteel Shuriken.
Devourer's Gauntlet
Ninja Tabi
Atalanta's Bow
Rage
Demon Blade
Poisoned Star
Fail-Not for Asi or Qin's Sais.
Can swap Fail-Not for Asi or Qin's Sais.
Elixir of Speed
Devourer's Gauntlet
Fail-Not
Atalanta's Bow
Rage
Demon Blade
Poisoned Star
Hunter's Blessing
Morningstar
Healing Potion
Multi Potion
Odysseus' Bow for Toxic Blade.
Can swap Odysseus' Bow for Toxic Blade.
Ninja Tabi
Transcendence
Asi
Atalanta's Bow
Qin's Sais
Odysseus' Bow
Berserker's Shield for Titan's Bane or Silverbranch Bow.
Can swap Berserker's Shield for Titan's Bane or Silverbranch Bow.
Elixir of Speed
Berserker's Shield
Transcendence
Asi
Atalanta's Bow
Qin's Sais
Odysseus' Bow
Ninja Tabi
Transcendence
Asi
Atalanta's Bow
Rage
Demon Blade
Poisoned Star for Shadowsteel Shuriken.
Can swap Poisoned Star for Shadowsteel Shuriken.
Elixir of Speed
Poisoned Star
Transcendence
Asi
Atalanta's Bow
Rage
Demon Blade
Purification Beads
Aegis Amulet
Runeforged Hammer
Mantle of Discord
Magi's Cloak
Winged Blade
Ichaival
Toxic Blade
Brawler's Beat Stick
Midgardian Mail
Spectral Armor
Ancile
Deathbringer
Bloodforge
Titan's Bane
The Executioner
Magic Shell
Horn Charge before 
Shifter of Seasons if you want to play more aggressive early.
You can max Horn Charge before Shifter of Seasons if you want to play more aggressive early.
Y
B
A
X
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Cernunnos
If we want to make some assumptions about the accuracy of Smite Builder, let's at least verify a couple of points.
When calculating DPS, it's the product of basic attack damage & attack speed. Looking at these individual values, attack speed is only important when calculating DPS, so it's probably best that we first confirm accuracy of the damage of a single basic attack. Agreed?
For this, since Smite Builder doesn't have an option to include Starter items (like
Okay. So we have to look at several different things to calculate the damage from a basic hit:
- Base damage at level 20 (37 +2.5 per level) = 87 base damage
- Total power from items (Ninja = 20, Devo's = 58, Ichaival @ 3 stacks = 21, Qin's = 40, Exe = 30) = 139 total power w/ Qin's, 129 total power w/ Exe.
- Mitigation from protections for the specific enemy
- For Qin's, additional damage from the passive, with mitigation factored in
- For Exe, adjusted mitigation from reduced protections
So I don't have to consider both 0 and max stacks, I'm just going to compare with max stacks of Exe. If Qin's can beat out max stacks, it's no contest, right?And here's where I find a Smite Builder mistake. Devo's is the specific culprit. It SHOULD apply 58 power at max stacks, but is actually showing 65. For the sake of ease of calculation, I adjusted the stacks in SB to 55, which provides the power contribution it SHOULD provide.
Anyway, now we'll confirm the Exe values, using only a fully stacked Exe, and see how they stand up to Qin's. We'll look again at both Agni and Athena. This means our pen value is 36% + flat 10.
With all of this stated, we can assume that the stated values are accurate.
Single basic hits:
- Qin's vs. Agni: 183
- Exe (full stacks) vs. Agni: 166
- Qin's vs. Athena*: 150 (*remember, SB is actually only using 3% in its calculation...)
- Exe (full stacks) vs. Athena: 111
Based on these values, I can basically guarantee without doing AS calculations that Qin's is straight up superior to Exe. BUT...I'll do two AS calculations just to confirm a couple of the SB stated DPS values.DPS - Exe vs. Athena:
I'm just going to make this really easy. Cern's AS is 1.98. (111 damage/hit) * (1.98 hits/second) = 219.78, so we can see exactly why SB states 220 DPS.
DPS - Qin's vs. Athena:
Now here is where it's going to be a bit more interesting to see...because SB isn't even accurate with this value. Cern's AS is 1.88. (150 damage/hit) * (1.88 hits/second) = 282 DPS.
As such, I straight up stand by my conclusion that Qin's provides the better DPS across the board. Perhaps the ONLY situation where you might see similar Qin's and Exe values is against a very tanky god that builds 0 extra health.
Unless I've made some grievous errors in calculations, the people that commented on Reddit are basically 1) assuming things, and 2) not doing any calculations themselves.
Thoughts?
(did I just do all that work for nothing? Am I the only one that likes these calcs? How much of a nerd am I?)
(that said, Kriega, you COULD just have the one build line, and throw O-Bow at the end, saying to replace Ichaival with it late-game)
If not, the only time i would suggest this setup is if multiple enemies are building double physical defense.
Your crit build is the only one i like at the moment.
At the point you have all that attack speed, remember that power will do more for your DPS. 10 extra power isn't all that much when getting Qin's, but of course we also factor in the Qin's passive.
Specifically using Smite Builder's DPS calculation here. Using based on level 15 enemies, Agni has 1,425 health and 50 phys prots, Herc has 2,220 health and 138 phys prots, Athena has 2,600 health and 148 phys prots. Calculating with
DPS w/ Qins:
DPS w/ Exe:
At full Exe stacks, DPS is almost equal, though if you're being technical, Qin's wins out even there. At 0 Exe stacks, Qin's is just straight up superior. Better overall DPS at that stage against both squishies and tanks.
There are probably multiple reasons why pros might get Exe. Stacks mean phys teammates also deal higher damage. 350 gold cheaper of course. And maybe in some cases they're just stuck in their old ways.
To me, I doubt 350 gold is going to make a huge difference for most people at regular skill level, unless you're backing and have just enough for Exe but not Qin's. At that point, I'd probably just get Exe. But if I back and I have enough for Qin's, I think that's the way to go.
(I do want to note, these values were all WITHOUT
DPS w/ Qins:
DPS w/ Exe:
If you are on the site and click on the item, it pulls up the stats, and the passive reads accurately for S5, so I expect it's calculating correctly. He also just updated for patch 5.8.
In addition, I did one further check...added a health item with no protections, just to see if it would trigger a higher % for Qin's passive. It did. So yes, think it's accurate.
http://eliteownage.com/smitebuilder.html?s=%5B%7B%22g%22%3A%22Cernunnos%22%2C%22a1%22%3A3%2C%22a2%22%3A3%2C%22a3%22%3A3%2C%22a4%22%3A3%2C%22i%22%3A%5B%7B%22n%22%3A%22Ninja%20Tabi%22%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22Devourer%27s%20Gauntlet%22%2C%22s%22%3A70%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22Ichaival%22%2C%22s%22%3A3%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22The%20Executioner%22%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22%22%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22%22%7D%5D%2C%22l%22%3A15%7D%2C%7B%22g%22%3A%22Cernunnos%22%2C%22a1%22%3A3%2C%22a2%22%3A3%2C%22a3%22%3A3%2C%22a4%22%3A3%2C%22i%22%3A%5B%7B%22n%22%3A%22Ninja%20Tabi%22%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22Devourer%27s%20Gauntlet%22%2C%22s%22%3A70%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22Ichaival%22%2C%22s%22%3A3%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22Qin%27s%20Sais%22%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22%22%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22%22%7D%5D%2C%22l%22%3A15%7D%5D
Basically, Qin's IS doing more damage even against tanks.
You should set up some tanks in your smite builder to see. (also I don't know if you know how you have to manipulate the program to show exe stacks... I can explain if you need)
And look... I'll do some more calculations later and post here. Sad Kriega doesn't trust me =( lol
Bran, just ctrl c "Boogie..." from now on. Every time you say this, i cant help but imagine a father who is utterly disappointed in his son.
http://eliteownage.com/smitebuilder.html?s=%5B%7B%22g%22%3A%22Cernunnos%22%2C%22a1%22%3A3%2C%22a2%22%3A3%2C%22a3%22%3A3%2C%22a4%22%3A3%2C%22i%22%3A%5B%7B%22n%22%3A%22Ninja%20Tabi%22%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22Devourer's%20Gauntlet%22%2C%22s%22%3A70%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22Ichaival%22%2C%22s%22%3A3%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22The%20Executioner%22%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22%22%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22%22%7D%5D%2C%22l%22%3A15%7D%2C%7B%22g%22%3A%22Cernunnos%22%2C%22a1%22%3A3%2C%22a2%22%3A3%2C%22a3%22%3A3%2C%22a4%22%3A3%2C%22i%22%3A%5B%7B%22n%22%3A%22Ninja%20Tabi%22%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22Devourer's%20Gauntlet%22%2C%22s%22%3A70%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22Ichaival%22%2C%22s%22%3A3%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22Qin's%20Sais%22%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22%22%7D%2C%7B%22n%22%3A%22%22%7D%5D%2C%22l%22%3A15%7D%5D
You should have multiple gods set up, as I normally do. Make a squishy, and a couple different levels of tank.
The section you want to look at is "Damage Given," and you can use the DPS values taken. There are 3 values for each god...grey fist is regular basic, red fist is if you WERE to crit with that basic, and yellow is the actual average (incorporates ACTUAL crit chance and averages it out). Since Cern doesn't have any crit, the grey and yellow fists have the same values.
Now...with regard to adjusting the system to account for stacks of
It clearly shows to me that even at max stacks of Exe, Qin's is doing enough higher damage per hit to beat out the slightly higher attack speed when getting Exe.
I'm doing another comment right now to see if I can verify that the damage calc from Qin's is reflecting accurately. That should tell if these numbers hold up overall.
Edit: Actually im confused. Im not sure whether the calculator is including abilities.
If you were putting everyone at level 1, I'd argue the differences in stats at that level are significant enough that they would skew the values much more inaccurately.
As for cost deterring you...I can understand that, but...in real-life situation, tell me there aren't PLENTY of times in-game when you've got just enough to complete
Only time that cost difference really has an effect is SPECIFICALLY when you're backing JUST as you have enough gold to get Exe but not Qin's.