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Sov and heartward

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Forum » Theory Crafting » Sov and heartward 13 posts - page 1 of 2
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by BestMinionEver » July 18, 2017 3:21pm | Report
Ehmm.
What happened to social and heartward?
Just had a support game and had no idea what to build lol

here is the game.
IGN: Marki

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Branmuffin17 » July 18, 2017 3:29pm | Report
It's currently a bug. No magical gods can buy it. LOLOL

For the time being, best not to play Support, haha, but if you do, probably suggest going selfish build, like Ricu and others have talked about. Watcher's Gift + Lono's Mask to Travelers Shoes or whatever, to Hide of the Urchin, then whatever else suits your fancy.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Duotem » July 18, 2017 9:54pm | Report
Sov/Thebes were nerfed making them less viable, in Sov's case making it extremely not worth. Heartward is outshone in 99% of circumstances by Shogun's currently. The physical power reduction crown is in a pretty good spot right now. Basically Support is back to mostly flex slots against the enemy team.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by BestMinionEver » July 18, 2017 11:25pm | Report
Branmuffin17 wrote:

It's currently a bug. No magical gods can buy it. LOLOL

Ahh! Good to know lol.

Branmuffin17 wrote:

For the time being, best not to play Support, haha, but if you do, probably suggest going selfish build, like Ricu and others have talked about. Watcher's Gift + Lono's Mask to Travelers Shoes or whatever, to Hide of the Urchin, then whatever else suits your fancy.

I hate selfish builds on support, but Hide of the Urchin is definitely a decent item to pick up.
Having bracers is all the selfishness you need IMO.
My enemy support went urchin and Mantle of Discord mantle was definitely annoying.

Duotem wrote:

Sov/Thebes were nerfed making them less viable, in Sov's case making it extremely not worth. Heartward is outshone in 99% of circumstances by Shogun's currently. The physical power reduction crown is in a pretty good spot right now. Basically Support is back to mostly flex slots against the enemy team.

Even though they where nerfed they still provide a really important defensive boost to your teammates. Yes you are easier to kill than the enemy support if you choose to go with sov/thebes/heartward, but what are you able to do as a support when the rest of your team are dead?

I love Shogun's though, been picking that up consistently since I came back. Same with Emperor's Armor, haven't tried the Jade Emperor's Crown yet (guess it can be decent).
IGN: Marki

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Duotem » July 19, 2017 8:44am | Report
For your personal stats: Sov is pretty lackluster especially when other item passives are taken into account, Thebes is ok because of the large HP value and shoring up both prots, and Heartward is decent but situational as your effective health is generally enough to survive their combos with other items, and if they're attacking you instead of other targets theyre generally going to die soon so you won't need to take more than 1 big chunk for the most part.

For allied stats: Due to the way protections lose value the more you have the protection aura's are the best early on and fall off as the game continues. In conquest you're looking at level 9 to finish the first one, which will be the one with the most overall value, for other modes you mayy even finish them later in level due to exp spooling. For this we'll take a look at mages since they're the class that stands to get the most from these items overall due to being squishy characters and their lack of magical prot scaling for the most part.

Aura's mitigation effect on Mage's at level 9 (before pen)
Physical
Old Sov: roughly 13.5%
New Sov: roughly 7.5%

Old Thebes: roughly 9.5%
New Thebes: roughly 7.5%

Magical
Heartward: roughly 10%


Old Thebes: roughly 10%
New Thebes: roughly 8%

Then to show scaling into end game the values at level 20
Physical

Old Sov: roughly 9%
New Sov: roughly 5%

Old Thebes: roughly 7%
New Thebes: roughly 5%

Combos
Old Sov and Thebes: roughly 14%
New Sov + Thebes: 9.5%

Magical (mages w/ no magic scaling for max usage)

Heartward: roughly 10%

Old Thebes: roughly 10%
New Thebes: roughly 8%

Old Thebes + Heartward: roughly 18% again both items prots reducing effectiveness
New Thebes + Heartward: roughly 16%

These are even further mitigated if the squishy decides to build protections of any kind, Dynasty Helm/Breatplate/VoidStone ect ect. Heartward also does less for every other class and the scaling mages dont get the full benefit.

Being easy to kill is just as big a deal because then they just kill you and you might get 1 round of CC off before you go down. You need to be able to soak damage, stay alive, and help you teammates not just give them prots and hope for the best. The amount of control you can get from counter building other items puts them in a pretty good place in comparison. For example, an adc that hits you while you have midguardian can end up dying or having to beads the slow if it procs. If you're the support and your entire team dies and you're still alive one of two things has happened. A: You ****ed up during the fight and either left too early or the enemy team is straight up ignoring you. B: Your team doesn't know how to position or when to retreat and they're idiots and were going to die anyway. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.

TLDR: Sov kinda sucks, Thebes is ok but not necessary, and heartward is alright but generally outshone.

Valencia item totals from my notes
Sov: 0
Thebes: 9
Heartward: 4

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Branmuffin17 » July 19, 2017 2:00pm | Report
@Duotem, this is pretty cool information...some questions and comments.
  • Regarding your first point of mitigation effect, you say "before pen." What does this mean? So you're using the stats of a standard mage at level 9 with the added aura from a Support's item, and under the Physical listing, they're taking physical damage...from whom? At level 9, would it be common for a physical damage dealer to have some form of pen at that point (e.g. Ichaival, Jotunn's Wrath), and how would that affect the mitigation values? And how do all of your values account for penetration?

  • I find it really interesting that Sov was not picked up at all at Valencia...but Thebes more and even Heart a bit.

  • Since the nerfs, I always felt that Sovereignty still had somewhat of a place, but Gauntlet of Thebes had less. 15 protections, even if for both types of damage, is EXTREMELY low. It's Magi's Blessing low. Sure, it provides it for you AND nearby teammates...but how much is that truly helping? As for the other stats, price is roughly equal. Thebes has 100 more health than Sov...that's good, but it's not like 300 is great and 200 is ****. For the wearer, 55 physical protection + 200 health is more effective health than 15 physical protection and 300 health, specifically when talking about physical damage, correct?

https://www.scribd.com/doc/166529015/The-Word-of-Thoth-A-Smite-Mechanics-Guide

Considering incoming base damage, calculation = damage x (100 / (100 + armor). This gives you a value you can use as a percent of damage mitigated.

Effective health calculation = Health / % damage mitigated)

Athena, level 9, with Watcher's Gift, Travelers Shoes, Sovereignty: 1,700 health, 99 physical protection, 43 magical protection. This equates to roughly 3,400 eHp against physical damage, 2,430 eHp against magical damage, not considering any penetration.

Athena, level 9, with Watcher's Gift, Travelers Shoes, Gauntlet of Thebes: 1,800 health, 69 physical protection, 58 magical protection. This equates to roughly 3,050 eHp against physical damage, 2,860 eHp against magical damage, again not considering any penetration.

Also consider that with Sov, you share the same physical protection aura as Thebes, but you also share +25 HP5. With Thebes, you only have a personal +15 HP5. As a tradeoff, you don't get share the magical protection, and so you and nearby teammates are more susceptible to magical damage.

15 HP5 from Thebes (self only) compared to 25 HP5 from Sov (self and nearby teammates) isn't insignificant in the earlier stages of a match...it's not HUGE, but it's an extra 120 health per minute (Sov provides 300 health total per minute). This is also nice when you're Support and trying not to back too often.

Considering that, generally, physical protection is more valuable, as it protects against:
  • Physical gods (often in a game with regular team comp balance there are 3 physical gods, and those 3 will often output more combined damage in a game than the 2 magical)
  • Minions (meaning you can aggress in lane and soak a bit more minion damage without having to clear the wave first if you're going for a gank or just to put high pressure on enemies)
  • Objectives (so you can tower dive a bit more to secure a kill or help tank so a teammate can damage the objective)
...then I find it a bit weird that Thebes is more highly regarded...to me, they have positives and negatives, and both still have a place in a Support build, at least situationally, but in my head, I still lean more toward Sovereignty, at least when facing those 3 phys / 2 mag enemy comps...and even more so when 1 of those 2 magical gods is a defensive Support like a Geb or Khepri.

Sure, other items may provide as good or better utility, especially for counter-building, but counter-building is really more important as items are built and stats increase. And so Sov may become less relevant as the game goes on, and as such it's a candidate for late-game replacement, perhaps...

So where is my thinking screwed up? What am I not considering? It seems like an okay item still...

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Duotem » July 19, 2017 3:49pm | Report
In addition to the stats that are given to you character with Thebes you're sharing 120 prots and with Sov you're shaing only 60. Plus sharing magic prots is generally always more relevant as most characters magic protections end up lower in the long run so you get more use out of them.

HP5 isn't a super relevant stat most of the time. Yeah, it's helpful but if I do enough damage to someone that that extra 10/25 HP5 would be super necessary for them to sustain its generally a better idea for them to back anyways

You're on the right track with the effective health train, but you're only looking short term with your analysis. The large amount of health on Thebes is going to play really well with both protections and increasing the cost efficiency of you buying stuff there. While buying Sov is reducing the gold/EHP value you get from continuing to get phys prots and providing less of a buff to the magic prots.

With the 3/2 split with the support being part of the 2 having the magic prot shared early actually mitigates a ton of their damage at the point where their damage is the most relevant.

Counter building is extremely enemy god based. There's a bit that you build to counter other items, but for the most part you're trying to counter gods and the plans with those gods playstyles.

Like I'm sure there's a place where Sov is a relevant choice, but I don't think that space will come up that often. It would probably require at least 4 phys on the enemy team.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by BestMinionEver » July 19, 2017 4:24pm | Report
I will read this more thorough tomorrow, and I guess I will be going Thebes and CDR/MS then into heartward as my "standard" build for support.

Just one quick comment to this:
Duotem wrote:

TLDR: Sov kinda sucks, Thebes is ok but not necessary, and heartward is alright but generally outshone.

Valencia item totals from my notes
Sov: 0
Thebes: 9
Heartward: 4

I definitely don't think you are saying it is bad just because of Valencia (I saw your numbers etc. haven't had time to check it myself).
But comparing pro play and everyday Joe Smite (be it casuals or ranked) is kind of meh (again don't think you mean it literally, and yes it makes a good point).
Maybe top of Diamond can make use of the same builds, but I would say that you have to get into masters games to be able to see that level of play (gods sake I was diamond at some point).
Most of the time unless you play a selfish support (Ares, Bacchus or a warrior) you are better off building the support items in my experience.
Also the support focus at the Valencia games I have seen so far was insane (waiting for my friend to come home to see them this weekend).
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Branmuffin17 » July 19, 2017 4:52pm | Report
Hmmm...before I continue my train of thought...
Duotem wrote:
With the 3/2 split with the support being part of the 2 having the magic prot shared early actually mitigates a ton of their damage at the point where their damage is the most relevant.

I have the following points in my head, so want to understand what you mean here:
  • If we consider the progression of a god and build from beginning to end, magical protection on a squishy god often goes nowhere without items...magical protection doesn't increase with level, at least for most mages. Many squishy gods won't build protections (some might build 1). When they don't build any, how is damage less relevant as the game goes on? Your example for Heartward showed ~10% early and late, so it seems the same to me. Are you meaning early game in terms of potentially getting a lead giving you an advantage?

  • You say that early game is where magical damage is the most relevant, thus magical protection having a greater impact at that stage. But as the game progresses, a god's health will increase based on level, but on the attacker's side, they're often building more and more pen, meaning their damage is becoming MORE relevant, at least against squishy gods...(often less relevant against tanks). Of course, it's more relevant with higher power and higher scaling, so that comes into consideration. Just trying to understand what you mean. Or do you mean where the protection is the most relevant, early game as you did state?


So I'm just trying to work out in my head proper early builds for supports these days. I'm guessing that Reinforced Shoes / Greaves is pretty relevant situationally, along with Travelers Shoes / Talaria, but for the first protection item, I've always felt that an item with added health...not just protections, was sort of important (back to effective health being considered).

I mean, I know you don't HAVE to get health (and Reinforced + Lono's can help with that early), but I feel better with it.

That said, if I choose based on those considerations, and take physical protection as a requirement in this specific case (magical protection also helpful of course, I'm not discounting your explanations, but at least SOME physical protection for physical god and minion damage is nice to have) here's the list I have of qualifying items:
  • Hide of the Urchin: Seems like one of the best general options now. Equal protections increasing with stacks, health and mana...decent (not great, but not horrible) price.

  • Breastplate of Valor: Situational function for those with high ability usage needs...but probably not preferred early because no health and no magical protection combines for 0 magical function...at least Sov and others have health that help against all incoming damage.

  • Midgardian Mail: Pretty good price too...so-so physical protection and great health boost, but more helpful against basic attackers, and probably more helpful when they've built up more attack speed and DPS? This just isn't an item I ever buy early.

  • Emperor's Armor / Jade Emperor's Crown: Just never get these...they're not in my list of considerations, just felt the need to mention them.

  • Spirit Robe: Okay, it's situational and a bit more costly compared to other items, but is this an option at this point? I'm considering effective health again, and the impact the 15% damage mitigation can have when it's activated. Using the same Athena stats at level 9, but adjusted for the damage mitigation and protection differences, I get an effective physical health up to 3,425, and magical of 3,226. Granted, that's with the passive on...without, physical is 2,913, and magical is 2,747. Also, you give 0 benefit to teammates, but you do get some early CDR as well...do you think this is an option as first protection?

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep by Devampi » July 19, 2017 11:14pm | Report
Bran someone in one of the reddit threads posted a video about someone theorycrafting about support builds. maybe watch that vid too. his guesses where the builds are going to be more selfless r more damage focussed

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