Guardians
EASY
Cabrakan is probably the easiest support to lane against, as long as your carry is competent. Cabrakan cannot engage well without Blink and can only clear the wave early on with
Tremors (no, not the movie) and even then, it wrecks his mana pool. The only thing when laning against Cabrakan is positioning, as long as you mind that and don't get caught by his ult, E-Z.
EASY
Geb is a pretty weak support overall, but can be a soft counter to Athena's strategy of burst due to his
Stone Shield, along with his interrupt from his
Shock Wave and
Cataclysm. However, the cooldowns are pretty long and he can be exploited after these cooldowns. The only other ways for engage are
Roll Out (which can knockback) and Blink. In laning against a
Geb it is important to ward the jungle around your lane, otherwise, the support can use his one through the jungle and knock you into the ADC, allowing a clean lane kill.
EASY
Ares is a good one-trick. As long as Ares lands his Shackles] he will dominate lane; however, dodging this ability allows [[Ares to output very little damage. Once he lands his
Shackles,
Searing Flesh in tandem can do about 75% of anyone's health (also note, once ares lands one shackle, he can land two more, allowing insane damage output). Since his cooldowns are long, this is what puts him in the Easy category. Let's also not forget the combo potential with the ADC and his ult,
No Escape. This is the single strongest team ability a guardian can have, but due to the delay, you can easily
Defender of Olympus out of his ultimate onto your ADC, or out of the lane if need be. This requires some understanding of the match-up, but once you do understand, this could be the single easiest match-up in the game.
EASY
Xing Tian is pretty easy to lane against. Step 1: Avoid his ult at level 5. Step 2: Avoid his choreographed roots, Step 3: Avoid his poke, Step 4: Crush lane. E-Z.
Medium
Khepri is a pretty skill match-up, due to his
Scarab's Blessing after level five, lane kills can be hard to come by against a skilled Khepri. Khepri also has early lane pressure with his
Rising Dawn. Khepri also has insane CC combos with
Solar Flare and
Abduct combo. This can also be a beads burner for your carry. Plus the passive
Fortitudecan really be a huge utility in lane. Overall, in a Khepri match-up, be careful.
Medium
Ymir's strength is also his weakness. Pushing is what Ymir does, his
Glacial Strike auto pushes the lane in your enemy's favor. This ability is also dangerous to
Athena specifically because her way of clearing involves being in the minions, the ability can poke you heavily early. Ymir also has a strong stun in
Frost Breath that can stun you mid 2-3 combo with Athena, and your carry. Ymir's burst is eye watering, but his ability to push allows a duo to play greedy, but is also easily punished, his
Frost Breath has a very long cooldown, and while he may do a ton of damage, he can be very difficult to kill. This allows him to be a very precise match-up against Athena, borderline hard.
Medium
Bacchus is the burst guardian outside of Athena.
Belly Flop,
Belch of the Gods, and
Intoxicate all lend to an easy kill not just on your carry, but even on you! So why is he only medium? You are actually a soft counter to an other-wise very strong laner, why you may ask? Well the stun from
Belch of the Gods can be canceled out with
Confound! Which drops his guaranteed burst!
Medium
Sobek is another bursty guardian that also has sustain with his
Sickening Strike.
Charge Prey is the move that you have to worry your positioning over. Due to this plus
Tail Whip and
Sickening Strike the lane should usually be around the even point. The clear on both supports is equal, which can be a tricky concept, which is why
Charge Prey can change the tide of the constant battle. Lurk in the Waters is another game changing ultimate that can burst your carry down. Sprint or Shellcan be used to avoid this ultimate. This is probably the truest 50/50 matchup for me.
HARD
Fafnir is probably the most damaging guardian in the game, or at least he seems that way. If Fafnir pops
Draconic Corruption, it's usually best to get out. That means some serious CC and damage is heading your way. The only time you should engage on Fafnir during this ability is if you have the burst/damage to immediately eliminate him from the fight, along with his CC his
Coerce buffs him/the carry to deal even MORE damage to swing the fight in your favor. The time to kill him is when he starts flashing, you can make him be in a very disadvantageous position by making him transform in the middle of a solid combo.
HARD
Did I say CC last time? Oh you want to be disposed for 6.4 seconds? Look no further than everyone's favorite Hindu guardian,
Kumbhakarna plus he can deal 485 burst damage at level five to finish you or your carry off with his
Epic Uppercut and
Throw Back Combo. So Eye watering burst + CC for days? Yeah, it's a hard match-up.
HARD
Sylvanus is the single guardian that you NEED to burst someone in the lane, if not, they're going to be healed right back up.
Verdant Growth adds 20 MP5 plus deals absurd amounts of damage early on. He can also pull you with
Nature's Grasp and sustain lane with
Wisps. Oh and he can finish you off with
Wrath of Terra for an extra CC + DoT ultimate. Oh and did I mentioned my man deals ranged autos? Difficult to out sustain and out play a lane with Sylvanus in it.
HARD
Terra is the bane of every support's existence. Did you want a support to lane against you that can clear it by herself instantly at level two? No? Too bad. Her
Monolith plus
Force of Nature combo can auto clear the wave, and provide a ton of aoe damage if you or your carry is standing in it. Oh and she can CC you into oblivion. Yes, all the top support can CC you for at least two seconds at any time. Oh and global healing, mana regen, cool down reduction and movement speed with
Terra's Blessing? There's a reason that Terra is still insta-banned every game almost despite constant nerfing
Nice start on your first guide!
Will comment first on items, then skill leveling.
For Support:
If you don't want Focus, then yeah, Reinforced Shoes might also be a good alternative. Not sure why Travelers Shoes are listed as core, but your example final build shows Focus. I know you mention the various boots below, but you might also list them all in the item selection at the top...just a consideration.
As with Anthrax, probably wouldn't suggest Magi's Blessing for her.
Anthrax does mention Witchblade. I would say that, Hide of the Nemean Lion, and Midgardian Mail all have their situations, and could all be in the situational listing of items.
@Anthrax, you say you don't know why you wouldn't go 4x health/mana potions. Not sure that would be a direct reason the enemy Duo would focus you, but that's my opinion. Idea could be because it's something reasonable to use up in a set amount of time, freeing up a space when you back to start getting wards (rather than sometimes being left with extra potions that you have to sell at a minor loss). Just thinking of when that might work.
Regarding relics, I would also not suggest Blink.
So those are my thoughts on the items.
Regarding skill leveling, firstly you will need to correct the order. You won't be able to max your first skill by level 8...earliest you can do that, I believe, is level 9.
For most gods, I can understand concentrating on one specific skill above all others...but with some of these Guardians, I can see getting one skill up to a certain point, and then focusing on another.
For Athena, I understand the intent for maxing Shield Wall first, but don't agree with the general order...here's why. It is important in the early game, especially while you're laning with the ADC, to help them out-clear the enemy. It's also great when you start to rotate, as it will allow you to clear jungle camps quickly.
That said, you have Watcher's Gift, so you want to do SOME damage to the basic waves, but you want the ADC to finish. At a certain point, you're not going to be able to attack the archers as you will kill them just with the wall...Archers have 265 health, and at level 3, you can do a theoretical 350 damage (though your damage is mitigated to an extent...15% at minute 5, 20% at minute 10). So I can see getting Shield Wall up to level 3 or so before you start to concentrate on other skills.
If your ADC has a strong early game and can out-clear their lane opponent, you might even start putting more points into Confound earlier. In that situation, you might level as follows:
3, 1, 2, 3, 4, 2, 3, 2, 4, 3 (through level 10)...at which point, you have 4 in Shield Wall and 3 in Confound.
See, it's a balance of measuring usefulness. Anthrax said level taunt over all else, and the issue I see with that statement is that there's an issue of diminishing returns of a kind...as you level Confound, you're only increasing the taunt by 0.25 seconds each time. That's fine and all, and longer taunts mean you can hold them down longer to secure kills, peel longer to give your teammates more time to escape, etc. But if the enemy has been recently hard CCd, your taunt is going to be reduced significantly. The following is taken directly from The Word of Thoth:
And that really reduces the effect of Confound...while you don't get that same effect from Shield Wall, which absolutely has its own use (again as stated above for minion clear, as well as helping to secure god kills by doing more damage).
Anyway, TL;DR my personal preference when leveling Athena's skills is to balance Shield Wall and Confound, with Preemptive Strike being the last one to be leveled...hopefully my explanations above help you understand why.
As for Jungle builds, HERE is where I would say that Winged Blade could be more useful...that extra move speed can help with those rotations a bit. Also, getting a bit more CDR in there somewhere would still be useful, I think.
Regarding your description for Shield Wall, it seems confusing and not quite accurate...you talk about dealing damage on the "outside" and on the inside dealing "additional (and more!!)," which isn't the case. It has a circular range of 30 units, and anything in that range at the time you use the skill gets hit for the initial damage...if enemies are in it after 2 seconds, they get hit a second time for more damage.
Regarding your description for Winged Blade, you say "10% movement speed" twice...
Like I said, good start, and look forward to seeing this guide finished and maintained!
A. You're the freaking man for giving such a detailed review, even some things I personally didn't hit on, or actually missed on, having close to 200 hours on the God.
B. Now I'll try to answer one by one, there are some that you completely nailed and got me on, but there are some things that I should add to the guide that will help the understanding of what I have on there.
A. The boots. CDR boots ftw, well sort of. The main reason that I have shoes of the traveler on the core item list is two fold. A. Quicker Rotations to the inevitable mid-fights that happen in the current meta (thanks SPL) and two, Gold collection is essential for a rotating support. Essentially in a perfect world, if there is constant team fighting with all members involved, every 90 seconds, you collect an extra 150 gold, of course this never happens, but the quicker rotation + gold collection makes this the starting no-brainer in my opinion, of course as gold matters less later, sell the travelers and get the cooldown boots!
Magi's blessing is a VERY niche item, considering, and is not listed below (one more thing I aim to do is add every single item I have listed, but considering the amount of time I have, I'm only doing incremental work here and there and maintenance to fix, which will happen after this amazing comment by you btw). Essentially the single use I've found on Magi is a 4-1 split, which is pretty uncommon. What I mean by 4-1, is that there are damage dealers and you're the only tank. This happens when you have an assassin or mage in the solo lane, and a less utility jungler. Regarding current meta, a 3-2 split seems to be the preference, but you have to be ready to adapt. I attempt to keep this as literal in-depth as possible this is why I added it.
Witchblade in my opinion has always been more solo focused, considering Bakasura isn't quite as prevalent as he once was, your main focus for this will be the AA warriors such as Erlang, Osiris, sometimes Bellona, but usually there's more value to be found elsewhere. This also goes for pestilence as well; however, not every solo laner counter builds correctly, so this is worth noting. Midguardian is something I never thought of, to be honest, I thought it's cost outweighed its usefulness, but considering the example, and maybe even going further to your magical hunters in general, it may be worth investing into, I'm going to test this item as soon as possible for some possible results.
As in my item review below regarding winged blade (which I do need to fix the movement speed issue) the stats for the price is absolutely ludicrous, and the passive is just a bonus, in all positions, you have to look for value over all else early game, that's why it's included in core, along with the other insane value item, Hide of the Urchin, coupled with the fact that you get these items online generally before carries get pen, you become a mid-game unkillable menace.
Potions, easy choice. The reason to not go 4/4 is that with all of the sustain in lane in current meta, ie. Sylvanus and Terra, which is a decent chunk of who you will go against, there's no point in out-sustaining these Gods, so may as well have a gold advantage somehow, this way at level five, if you're in a super rush, you can ult in for ward coverage, and possibly set up an early gank on the duo lane.
Blink. This goes back to the niche mentioned above this is for a SUPER aggressive comp on your side, that needs an immediate initiation, or going for a sneak initiation from the jungle with a Zeus or Poseidon.
Leveling abilities, here is where you're both correct and wrong. This is the greediest thing I do on Athena, and to a degree, it actually works. I don't auto-level my abilities, instead, I manually do it for this reason. At level 8 I generally choose nothing, and wait until level 9 to choose my abilities, why? Because I want that 5 second cool down, and I want that shield wall maxed. So yes you technically cannot, but you also can, and that's how I do it, and that NEEDS to be mentioned in the guide, so thank you for pointing that out!
As for shield wall, this is actually a valid point, and I may change the complete direction of the moves overall due to this. The reason I initially did it was for the clear. The general supports that are shown favor are high clear supports such as Athena, Sylvanus, Bacchus, Ymir, ***bha, and Terra (three 3-1 combo can auto-clear at level 2 D:)
Overall, your move ideas provide quite a bit of insight, and I'll personally test it out, so if you don't see an immediate change, don't kill me D:.
Winged Blade actually is super useful, although it no longer provides CDR due to the insane value it already has D:.
Shield wall, consider that fixed, you are absolutely correct, that wording is gross, I also worked on this several times at four in the morning, and tried to proof read, but you know how that goes.
Winged blade, already discussed, fixing after this comment ASAP.
Thank you so much for all of the help, this was the BEST possible comment I could receive, it provided insight, and seeing someone's perspective outside your own can really open your eyes and make an overall guide, so thank you so much!
So...understood about Travelers Shoes...I just almost never use them myself, and I would usually tend to get them on Supports that are lacking in mobility, or just have average mobility. I don't know how much gold is gathered from that over the course of a normal match, but I do have to say the extra mobility is nice. I should try it out more...just difficult for me to pass up Focus/CDR or perhaps Reinforced...and actually, I hadn't mentioned it, but with Confound, you're specifically inviting more hits, so those stacks can definitely be helpful. I guess if I was Incon, I'd go Travelers, but I need all the help I can get, lol.
Thanks for the explanation on Magi's Blessing. What is it about that item that you like for a 4-1 damage/tank split? I know the health is nice, but the protections are low. I think if I was in that position, I would definitely get more health, but I'd probably build it in with items that have higher protections...like, maybe getting Urchin, Sov, Heart or Bulwark, and maybe Spirit Robe (for the damage mitigation). Round that out with shoes + I dunno... Winged Blade, Mantle of Discord, or another situational item?
Regarding Midgardian Mail, when you say "cost outweighing usefulness," that's the term I use when considering Mystical Mail. That one seems so expensive for the smaller amount of damage...it might give you an extra couple hundred damage in an engagement, but...I dunno, just never understood that item. Midgardian Mail is definitely niche too, but if against 2 basic attackers, remember that Confound is going to force them to hit you, so it's got a good chance of activating. And there's not that much to counter a good Freya, at least not on the magical protection side of things. So slowing her attack speed is the best you can do...with maybe Thorns.
Makes sense with potions and Blink.
And ahhh...you're talking about point-skipping...I hadn't seen any explanations on that in the guide, so thought it was just an error. I wrote about that a bit in my Assault guide, but it never came to mind in this case.
I miss the old Winged Blade... =(
Anyway, you rock, and look forward to seeing this guide grow!
Also FYI I'm not upset at all if anyone disagree, it forces me to view other opinions and opt to try them, along with making a stronger guide overall ^^
Overall, the effort you put into critiquing is amazing, and I can't wait to test some things out, Thorns, is another.
Also I think we all miss the old Winged Blade =(
Also don't know if I've said this enough but thank you for all the feed back, going to work on a little bit in the coming weeks, just getting over a sickness so I have time again to finish some stuff up and work on the guide :)
Also more itemization is coming last on list of updates so I have total information in the coming weeks trying items and relics out on her!
. You could also go reinforced shoes in order to play more aggressive early on. In the aggressive support items you shouldnt build Magis Blessing without other tankier items ethereal staff is also not worth it better items would be spirit robe and imperial plate helm. For your relics blink is not a great choice for athena because you already have a dash and an ult to initiate with. And instead of hide of the nemian lion i would build witchblade because its passive will becapplied more often and to more people as well. As for Mail of Renewal it is a very niche item its best when the opposing adc and mid are building more penetration than usual. A build i would suggest is Shoes of Focus, Hide of the Urchin, Genjis Garb, physical protection item to counter build, Mantle of Discord, Winged Blade. This is a more all purpose build but works very well. You can also swap the build order after Hide of the Urchin to fit the team comp.
For boots, you're thinking too much of the here and now, and laning phase, Travelers shoes have immense value throughout the game. Quicker rotations and gold collection make it the go to item for early that you sell late when gold matter less. Mail of renewal is less niche than you think. Mail of renewal's passive is pretty nifty in team fights, it's generally the last item I build, when one kill occurs, 15% of your health gets healed over 5 seconds. That may not seem like a lot, but that's an extra 450ish health to tank with, and if more kills happen, more healing occurs, overall, I think it's the most underrated item in tanking. Back to here and now for blink. You sometimes need an escape, and that's why blink is a good initiation tool, imo. I think the witchblade vs. lion argument would be more reliant on your personal team. Are they dealing damage? No, lion, yes, witch blade, but also mentioned above, I see witch blade more-so in solo lane at this time due to its effective stats on gods like Ravana, Erlang, and Osiris. My overall build I recommend as an over-arching is the selfish tank build from Incon, stats wise, it can't really be beat. Boots of choice (CD), Urchin, Winged blade, spirit robe, mantle, and mail of renewal. This overcaps your CDR by 5% (darn) but other than that provides the most possible stats for the build; however, it's your job as support to know the itemization for every situation, which is also a point of the guide, so hopefully with more itemization description, I can provide a more detailed use of everything! Oh one last quip, 2080 gold for a pseudo-third relic with a bit of protections can be a steal against a heavy CC team, I'll clarify some in building due to this!
Thanks for the comment though, the possible use of witch blade is something I'll explore.