Smash 4 General Disucssion

.... You guys actually think its more skill to just recover on the edge with no work needed?
So.... you guys actually like that when your opponent comes back and your hanging on the edge they can just touch it and you go off.

That is dumb it didn't make the game harder it made it easier. Easier for lower skilled players to come back from being intercepted or knocked away.

That takes less skill, actually it takes no skill. There is no way you can even try to create a way to make it sound like simple touching the edge takes more skill then they way it used to be where you have to hit them off the edge to grab it.

You know why I don't like it?

Because it takes the skill out of choosing where to land, you don't just have to land on the edge, you can choose to either land above the edge or fake them out and act as if your going to land back on the platform and grab the edge instead. If you have two jumps left coming back or even one you can make it seem as though you are going for the edge then jump on the platform when they go for the edge.

That took more skill then what it is now. Oh I'm off the edge, too bad I'll just touch the edge and you can't even stop me from grabbing it unless you intercept me before I touch it. Oh your hanging on it? Too bad if I touch it I automatically get the edge simply by touching it no skill required.

Its pretty dumb, ****ing pac man, sonic, villiger I think it was and other characters already have good up B's and comebacks. They can LITERALLY be at the bottom of the stage out of the screen and STILL COME BACK.

To say that they needed to let them grab the edge automatically simply by touching it when another player is on it because their come back is bad, is not even true for the most part when lots of the characters can come back with ease without ever touching the edge.

So what if you picked a scrub Yoshi with a scrub comeback? Don't play Yoshi then, not every character is going to have everything the same, that's what make them different. If you don't want edge hogged then don't get ****ped on off the edge.

People are basically saying, oh I got hit off the edge on 100% damage I want to be able to steal the edge another player is hanging on simply by touching it because I should be able to.

No, no no..

You shouldn't be able to, if you got put on 100% damage get better at the game and don't get put on that damage. That's the entire point of the cliff is to avoid going off of it.

The entire point of the edge is to give you another way to come back.

No its not the only way to come back.

There are 3 ways to come back.

#1 Simply don't grab the edge and go back on the platform, some of the characters can literally comeback higher than the edge and not even need to grab it, and unless your hit at the very bottom of the stage you can always jump back on the plateform without touching the edge.

#2 Grab the edge if its open or hit them off to get it. Your not always coming form underneath, majority of the time you are coming back sideways and are not underneath. If you are underneath the stage that means you got intercepted and that's your fault and the entire point of the cliff is so you die.

#3 Wall Jump, yea, maybe some of you forgot but you can just use the walls and get another jump to come back, and you can use the wall to trick them into thinking your going for the edge.

So there has always been 3 ways to come back, you can CHOOSE which way to come back, that's why it took more skill not less. If they grab the edge then you can come back from the top, if they don't grab the edge you can grab the edge, if they have the edge you can jump from the wall or air dodge to get back on stage.

What is it now?

Oh, your on my edge too bad I'll touch it once and now I get it and your falling. No that does not take any amount of skill, if I let my 14 year old brother play against me he could do that with ease, even my mom could do that.

My verdit is : If you get put on high damage that's your fault, if you are off the cliff that's your fault, if you got intercepted off the cliff that's your fault.

There is not much to blame in SSB.

I do not like ANYTHING that makes the game easier for lower skilled players to fight higher skilled players.

Basically anything that makes the gap between lower skilled players and higher skilled players shorter is BAD not GOOD. The only people who think its good are the lower skilled players who want to have a easy time fighting someone who is better than them, no really good player wants to have the game nubbed down so that lower skilled players can beat them more easily without taking the same amount of skill to train on their character or gameplay.

Let me use Captain Falcon as an example : If I get hit off the edge to the side I judge how to come back based on what the opponent is doing. If he is on the edge I might side B over, if he is on the edge I might jump back on stage but fake him out then go for the edge.

If he is not on the edge I may act as if I am jumping to the platform but drop quickly to the edge instead.

That took skill

Please explain how it takes more skill now to grab the edge when its literally so easy all you have to do is touch it and the other person automatically gets forced off the edge.

SSB WAS A PERFECT 10/10 Fighting game with Melee mechanics

Literally perfect

So they decide to mess it up instead when they already had a perfect game

SSB WII U would have been perfect if they just kept everything the same

There was no point other than to make SSB easier to play against pro players, why else would they remove all of the good stuff that everyone liked.

Do you even know why those mechanics made SSB the best fighting game???

Because you can train and get better, and all of your training makes you better than those who didn't train to become better.

Now its just, meh, you do a little bit of training but nothing to master.

What do I have to master in SSB Wii U?

They took away the competitive side and replaced it with a more noob friendly scene so everyone could have fun and not have to train on using advance techniques.

That is like Straffing in a video game.

Its not my fault if you don't want to train to strafe. The video game creator shouldn't take away straffing from shooter games just because the lower skilled players don't want to practice straffing to beat better players.

To put it simply

They made the game "Fair"

Fair means = Equal chance to win. How did they do this? By crippling what makes pro players pro players and enhancing easiness for low skilled players so that there is no big gap in skill levels anymore. Now if you want to get the edge you simply touch it no skilled needed, now if you face a pro they won't be wave dashing, now when you fight a pro both of you have the same recovery because one cannot L-Cancel because he practiced learning it.

The people like me have no way to get truly superior than a regular player and that's what is strait BS. In Melee I could master things so I am better.

Now its all about who makes the move first and who gets grabbed first. Not much to learn, not much to master.

So yes, SSB is FAIR and that's why I don't like it mechanically speaking because when I say fair I mean that they made sure there are no ways for players who want to **** on other players to get out of hand with their skill gap. Now that gap is closer to the lower skilled players so that they stand a chance.

And I think that's *********.

If you suck at a video game I shouldn't have to lose all the techniques to master just because some 13 year old cry baby is pissed that he got raped by my Captain Falcon.

How about inserted of crying at the pros being too good these cry babies actually get better.

The entire reason why SSB was the funest fighting game ever to me was because I HAD SOMETHING TO WORK FOR.

What do I have to work for now? I loved SSB because I could WORK TOWARDS perfecting every technique in the game so I could work TOWARDS obliterating all the other people who were also WORKING to become better.

How do I work to become better in SSB Wii U compared to a AVERAGE PLAYER???

Exactly, there is only a few things you can train for, other than those few things nothing can make you "That much better"

Eh, Actually lets see if I change my mind or not. Maybe if I play the game more I will have a change of heart... or not... I only played it for like 2 hours over my friends house before I had to leave.

Merp, but when he comes over I'll play it online, then you guys will give me your names so you can feel my Captain Falcons Wrath.

Also I am not hating SSB Wii U, if I owned it I would play it all the time. I still like the game and its obviously going to be more appealing because its simply the "Newest SSB".

I am just saying I do not like how what they DID and I am saying they SHOULD have kept SSB like Melee.

There is no downside and everyone is happy...

The game would have new characters, the game would look better, the game would have Lil Mac for noobs to play, the game would have techniques for competitive players to master and train if they want to get better, ect.

SSB WII U WOULD and COULD have been the BEST fighting game if they kept Melee Mechanics, but because they choose to get rid of them people have to create hacks to put them in the game.

Look at any PRO TOURNAMENT battle in Melee, that game is so ****ing hype with fighting.

Look at any PRO TOURNAMENT in SSB WII U, its not even going to compare to the hype Melee had in combos + speed + mechanics.

I am mad because I know the game THIS COULD have been, which is 2x better than what it is now.

Oh well, me and my friend will just wait for the next Hack.

I disagree that your description of fair means there's nothing to strive for. In the old version, if you played a character like Lil Mac, there was no way to lose. YOu'd knock someone off from superior on-platform performance (Marth, Fox, Falco), and then just deny every single attempt to get on. That is not fair.

In this way, the pressure is on YOU to be good, not be average. In the old game, anyone can spike. It's not hard. Trust me when I say the best players were simply who knocked others off the platform better because edgeguarding was not complicated at all.

In this new game, it takes skill to edgeguard. This is the thing - it's harder to do, not impossible, so what you're degrading is exactly the thing you want - a way to separate pros from noobs. No, it's NOT impossible to edgeguard, just much harder, so now only the really good players can pull it off well. You'll see more people recovering, but you'll see pros not let anyone near it, because they know what to do.

I think the added challenge will really diversify the game, and honestly, I really like it.

Huh, it's obvious that just by the way we talk that you're on a higher skill level than me, but I
usually find it to work against regular players and level 9 CPU. It's actually kinda funny. My opponent waits near the ledge waiting for me to use my up special, but I just dodge them with my side special. Then when my opponent waits for me to use my side I just lure them into blocking/dodging my down special and THEN I use my side. It's pretty hilarious because by that point someone is screaming "WHY CAN'T YOU PLAY LIKE A REGULAR WENDY/BOWSER JR. ARGH DKDMFNR"

ICEN, you don't fall or automatically kill someone when you steal their edge. You let lightly pushed aside at a 45 degree angle.

Formatting hates me.

Just click this video link: it skips to the part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzAyE5P-60w&feature=youtu.be&t=2m06s

Even Little Mac can make it from that distance. But I digress.

You're complaining about how you can't force people to choose between hitting the edge and landing on the stage, but that's kinda false. There still is a choice. There are still ways to punish those who grab the edge, with things like Game and Watch's down tilt or Villager's tree.

The only thing losing edgehogging did was to make grabbing the ledge a less "do or die" choice.

You complain about losing techniques like L-canceling and edgehoggging and how they make it possible for newer players to beat older ones. This is complete ********.

Yes, you don't have to master L-canceling or wavedashing or whatever. But in exchange, you have to learn how to counter more characters, learn to not rely on combos, but single hits, and learn your OWN CHARACTER IN AND OUT instead of relying on a technique that works on all characters.

For example, L-canceling would be something like Purification Beads in Smite. Everyone has to get it to win, but it doesn't promote skill. It doesn't promote things like dodging or predicting or juking.

In Melee, you could use a handful of techniques over and over and over and over and win. Learn L-Canceling, DACUS, etc, and a few basic combos, and you can win as anyone. It was all about who got the first grab or combo - chain grabs were huge in Melee.

You say that SSB4 is about the first grab. If so, then where are the death combos? Where are the infinite grabs? There aren't any. This means you are more reliant on single hits and grabs, making it harder to gain a solid advantage.

SSB4 is MORE skill-based because you have to be consistently good. In Melee, you just needed one success. In SSB4, you need to be successful over and over and over to win.

Let me put it this way. If you're the best player ever, you should still completely demolish new players. If you're great, you should still beat new players, but take a few hits. If you're good, you can beat players most of the time, but you might even lose a stock.

The point is, there is more room for error now - on both sides of the equation. This may sound like making the game more "easy," but it isn't because it applies to BOTH players. Both new and old players have to be consistent in damage, both new and old players need to learn everything about a new kit, and both new and old players have a ton of things to learn, because again, you HAVE to know a character's kit in and out to truly master them now, as well as learning the enemy's kits as well.

Sub kinda summed up everything I was trying to say. +1

Yeah, Sub has the tendency to

A. Make his opinion sound convincing by using a lot of terminology and fancy words

Or

B. Summing up someone's PoV by using a lot of terminology and fancy words

What an elaborate guy :)

OMG I can't wait to see how good you guys are if you think that SSB4 Takes more skill then melee.

There is not a chance in hell that SSB4 takes more skill then everything in Melee.

Everything is spoon fed to you in SSB4, Melee you had to do like multiple inputs at once all while fighting, you had to fight, while short jumping, while L-Cancling, While Wave Dashing, While Dash dancing, while Moon Walking, While doing every other technique.

In SSB4 Its all spoon fed for you already, no need to L-Cancel anything because the game automatically does it for you so no need to even do it everyone is FAIR because nobody is better at it.

I am not saying this to be a D bag... but everyone person I ever faced that said Melee didn't take more skill are usually the less skilled players who didn't like to use L-Cancling/Wave dash ect.

Of course a pro in Melee would still be good in ANY smash game, but they will be LESS GOOD because they don't have a HUGE advantage.

Melee if you sucked at L-Cancling and you faced me who does it perfectly with every move and fast falling you would get destroyed.

Well I'll just wait to play you guys then, because if Melee takes less skill then SSB4 then I want to see how good you guys are in SSB games because I do not believe anyone with a brain would dare say SSB4 takes more skill then Melee.

Show me videos where people think SSB4 takes more skill.

List all of your IGN's on Wii U

Because when my friend comes over I'm facing all of you 1v1.

* I'll be using Captain Falcon so there you go, you already know who I am picking.

(I don't know if they updated the game or not because when I was playing it it was offline)

Still there is not a chance in hell SSB4 takes more skill than Melee based on what I seen in the few hours I played it. (Assuming there was no updates, and didn't miss anything.)

Heres a question.

WHICH GAME WOULD A PRO DESTORY A NOOB IN MORE

SSB Melee or SSB Wii u?

Exactly, you would not STAND A CHANCE against a pro in Melee, if I face a top pro on SSB Wii U I would have more of a chance at beating them then if I played on Melee.. You can deny that if you want but its just a fact.

Look at any pro video and the difference is very clear, movements are no where near Melee, Melee pros would obliterate you to where you don't even stand a chance.

Fascinating how the base of all the evidence is something purely subjective.

DOES THIS LOOK LIKE SUBJECTIVE????

No its a fact, Buddha show me any SSB Wii U video with amazing combos lets see it, combos in SSB Wii U do not even compared to Melee. Because this is what happens to bad kids on Melee.
Play Video
Look how horrible and slow this game/combos are in Wii U, if that were Melee they would not only be faster because of L-Cancling they would be having better combos.
Play Video
I forgot what I'm seeing is false its not facts.

Combos in SSB4 WII U are garbage compared to Melee.

I just looked up tons of combo videos to try to prove SSB4 to be as good or better, nope, garbage 2-3 hit combos for 90% of every character and gameplay and videos.

3 Hits seems to be the average combo max.

Which is pretty garbage if you ask me.

Take any character from SSB Wii U that is on Melee and the Melee version of that character will have 3 more hits + in combos its not even comparable.

Look at the ****ing marth I just showed you, put that fox on like 100%+ with a good combo.

In SSB Wii U I just looked up ALL THE COMBOS I could find on Youtube and they are all garbage 3 hit combos.

Please tell me its subjective again I would love you too.