Sub's Tier List

Defending my arguments? That's what I've been doing, and it doesn't work. It ends up with a difference of opinion on whether Bacchus' CC is good or not, and for some insane reason, Greenevers is saying that a 1 second knockup and a delayed 1 second stun and a weird CC is really, really strong. It's not an argument, it's a difference of opinion. He's not attacking my argument, he's sticking with his. There's nothing to defend. (And I have to repeat myself, he thinks a 1 second stun and a 1 second knockup is a good CC and Bacchus' ult makes "most abilities are useless and just a waste of mana.")

Also, "dirty tricks?" I accused him of accusing me of police brutality, exaggerating, and outsourcing. He was the one to make this reddit bet, he's the one who keeps saying a 1 second CC are good and Intoxicate makes most abilities useless, and he's the one who keeps calling me some kind of tyrant who expects to crash his iron fist on the feeble commoner peasants.

How am I under-exaggerating? I've used pure, undisputable numbers.

For example; a 1 second knockup. A 1 second stun. Constant mana drain.

When did I ever say he was oppressing me or some other ******** like that?

And as for the outsourcing, he brought it up when it could have been resolved in the private messages.


I say it like it is. Bacchus is garbage. I don't care if "he's not that bad," this is a game where you pick the best or lose. Seriously, when do you see Scylla in ranked anymore? At least, when Janus isn't banned? I don't. I already explained why this tier list has only two tiers - its because Power Creep made everything useless.

Use. Less. As in, it doesn't have a use. As in, its niche is worthless and/or outclassed. And Bacchus is garbage because he is useless. You can build him full damage and kick ***. You might even play him tank with Meditation in ranked, and you might win. That doesn't change how other tanks do his job better, and easier. Which is why he is garbage.

Let me finish with a metaphor: You buy two refrigerators when you need only one. The new one can do all the old one can, but has an adjustable thermometer and a ice cube maker. So you throw the old one away...into the garbage.


It's funny how I didn't even need to test. I've played MOBAs, I have a pretty good eye for these things. Seriously, I don't see how people can say with a straight face that a 1 sec stun and knockup are good CC when every other tank has better. Like, in the old days, when Hades was a tank, there was a standard of one 2-sec hard CC on a tank, and maybe one or two soft CC. Now, there's a standard of two hard CC with one soft CC and one mobility, AND a gimmick (or remove the mobility for mroe soft CC.) Bacchus was the only support with multiple hard CC, which is why their durations are so short. But now, like Hades, he's simply outclassed.

Thank you guys for the support. I appreciate it. You are glorious people.


Never assume a single post will end an argument.

Anyway, Bacchus damage is way different from Bacchus support tank. I didn't put Mage Bacchus on the tier list because he's a joke. No one plays him seriously.

Also, it kind of says something about Bacchus' ult when its used for damage more than the CC.


There's a Squiddish video where he plays Bacchus, and gets Meditation AND blue buff, and he barely stays up on mana. I dunno, either you hacked the game or play with Rama a lot. Or you have a habit of stealing enemy blues.

Or you sold your soul to the DevilHiRez.


Exactly, its all about the terminology. You can see my justifications for calling Bacchus and other low-mid tiers garbage above this post.

I'll go more in-depth here, and use a MOBA comparison.

Seriously guys, don't roll your eyes and glance over this. This is important, especially for those of you who don't play other MOBAs.

In League, each champion has a niche they fill. No champion ever completely eclipses another (like how AMC was eclipsed by Rama), so pretty much every champion has a use. And yet, there are tiers. There's a mid tier, a low tier, and a high tier, and aside from that Kassadin problem, no S tier.

Despite having their own niche, some champions are low tier because they simply aren't good general picks. Some champions are worse than others due to having a common weakness. Some champions may have a niche, but it isnt particularly useful. Some simply aren't in the meta anymore. But the point is, there is rarely any big reason to not pick a particular champion, so there's a healthy and flexible metagame, where you can pick mid or even low tier gods and expect to play reasonably well, as long as you play to their strengths (and skill and counterpicking also help). God knows that Ahri isn't so great as she was in season three, but I still see her depressingly often. Sometimes she loses. Sometimes she wins. You can still pick her and win, and more importantly, have a realistic chance to win, because Ahri occupies a niche, is good at that niche, and can beat other top tier champions on a level playing field.

But the main difference, and the problem with Smite, is that the difference between top tier and every other tier is too much. Either you completely outclass another god in every single way, giving literally no reason to play that outclassed god (Kukulkan vs Agni), or your niche is horribly useless (Nemesis), or you're simply weak (Nemesis). You could say Ares has a niche of permacripples and a pull ultimate, but that niche is so weak and easily countered that it might as well not exist. Scylla, Ares, AMC, to Guan, they're all garbage because they offer no advantages at all from a tactical standpoint. When someone picks Chronos mid, you get reported, and rightly so, because you're throwing your team's chances to win down the drain.

(Tactical standpoint - there's an opportunity cost for picking a bad god. For example, you can pick Guan Yu because of his teamfight - but you also lose the opportunity to pick Chaac, or Hercules. So even if he has a niche, the real question is: Is it worth losing the all-purpose power of the non garbage gods? This, above all, is the main reason why picking a bad god can doom your team.)

Try picking AMC in ranked against a Rama. Sure, you might win, but you can't realistically hope to win, either. On an even playing field, you're doomed to lose against an equally skilled opponent. Same for Bacchus vs Geb, or Kukulkan vs Agni, or Nemesis vs Mercury. Not in a duel, but in what you can offer for your team.

Now, there WAS an example of balanced tiers in Smite. There was a time where Agni, Ao, and Poseidon were dominating ranked. Literally Agni was banned or played every game. But then, Ra. Ra was definitely not as strong as those three. He was never banned, but he still had a chance of winning against them and had a niche - healing - that kept him afloat, despite his weaknesses that prevented him from being top tier. No one was outclassed in everything. This was pretty close to being okay.

(Of course, then HiRez nerfed a mid tier Kukulkan for literally no reason from a balance perspective. So much for a mid tier. If you're wondering, what kept Kulukhan afloat was his kiting and anti-melee abilities, as well as his zoning and massive AoE damage that no one could match. Despite his lack of mobility, it's always fun to 3-1-4 a melee god into oblivion. But I digress.)

tl;dr: Smite doesn't have niches vs niches, it has master of alls vs jack of all trades and niches, obliterating the point of a mid tier (since the very idea of a mid tier are gods that aren't as good as top tier ones but still have a use.) Bacchus might be "mid tier," but you sure as hell won't pick him when Athena, Geb, and Sylvanus exist - he doesn't have a use. (And before you ask me about Thanatos, this was a time where low mobility gods were actually played, so you could play to their strengths. But then Osiris popped up, then Janus, etc, making low mobility champs worthless, and therefore killing their niche.)


See stuff on this post.


Woah there, delete this thread? You're kind of freaking me out. I think you need to get off of the hate train and learn some yoga.

I half-think you're an alternate account. For just diving into an issue with such...unnerving directness and hostility. "RAWR SUB YOU ARE WRONG AND YOU SUCK," lol.

Or you could be a lurker, I guess. But either way, I'm going to ignore you, kthnxbye

This is getting dangerously close to spiralling out of control. Just warning you guys. If it does, then this thread will be locked.

Hasn't this gotten 2 warnings already?

On a side note, I just got a quadra with Nemesis. Denied the penta by Odin though :( match details

Now that I look at it, I have a 100% win rate with Sylvanus in conquest. Only 8 matches though, but since matchmaking exists, I can pick my best god and have an outstanding lane phase and still manage to get destroyed.

I'm starting to love Sylvanus. It's not the in your face fighter support that I love the most nor the savior, In fact I find Sylvanus being the support that does less damage I've played so far, but he's amazing at keeping the fight going.

Still getting used to it though. I miss my capability of fending off dudes on my own. He has the uselesness 1v1 that I plain HATE, but with just one guy by his side he is amazing.

My favourite will always be Wukong though. With him I feel like I can find someone alone in the jungle and punish him for it, instead of hugging him until help arrives.

Well, yeah, that's a skill level thing. Green, tier lists should NEVER be based on skill, then every character is great because someone is good at them. The whole "Bacchus's ult is good or not" thing is highly subjective, btw. The worst thing for a discussion like this is arguing subjectivity, because it can't be done. Obv you have some kind of problem with seeing in it, as do others, but personally I've always found it comically worthless, both playing and being against bacchus. In the example you give here of nemesis, who even I agree has a place in the meta, is a bad one, because it's pretty obvious that they had some less than spectacular (Read: Ra and Ymir) players on their team. This thread has delved into very SUBJECTIVE topics, which is not the point of a tier list. Sub, I do agree that a mid tier is a good idea, because there ARE characters than can be picked up viably in the right circumstances, like scylla if janus isn't an option. Either way, that's my 2 cents. Now, I shall fade back into the night and watch these arguments with great bemusement ;P

That's great and all but I wasn't even talking about the tier list. I said on a side note which indicates I'm just letting you know.

Green, I'm sorry, but you put it in this thread after all of the nemesis stuff. I'm honestly confused why you would think that ANYONE would think you were posting that for any reason but to bolster your argument. Also, I thought you were saying that it was a side not to what you said previously in your post, not to the thread.

Easily confused but not my intention :P.

If he was not doing it to bolster his argument, he was going off topic and boasting for no reason. Seriously, what kind of pompous braggart goes into threads to post random stuff to make his **** look bigger?

If he WAS doing it to bolster his argument, which he likely was, then that was a poor example, since Ra and Ymir.

Either way, you need to stop. And didn't you say you were leaving? Leave.

That last statement made me laugh.

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I'm considering moving Batz to ??? tier, for the exact same reasons as Ne Zha: inconsistency. Yeah, his late game teamfight stuff is good, but his steroid, with Deathbringer, is 50-50 on a single basic attack, while Ne Zha at least has repeated attacks. Adding to this is how utterly inconsistent his early ganks and clear speeds are, which is incredibly annoying when playing him.