All of that has been said numerous times in many threads that people try to spin this one off in. Forums are public you can step in when and where you like :)
I don't want to be one to step into any arguments here, especially as my first post on Smitefire - but TBH, Asmoday is right. (Though he's right without sufficient evidence)
And DJMantiss, if you don't have the stats to back up your claims, you really shouldn't tell people to go look at them.
The problem with Fatalis isn't what was outlined in this thread. It's not a matter of "Hit strong + Slow" or "Hit Fast and weak". Not at all.
There are a few problems with Fatalis:
1.) It doesn't come with a unique passive that is good enough to warrant the money. The CDR cap isn't that high in SMITE, and getting CDR buff with fatalis already puts you over the cap.
2.) The base stats it gives aren't as useful as other items. Fatalis gives attack speed - this means it's good for auto attack gods. However it also gives movespeed - a stat that can be found in other more useful places on the item list (Heartseeker, boots) and has diminishing returns. So stacking too much of it can cause you to get less benefit.
3.) The attack speed alone does not outdamage any other item choice with attack speed. Grab Exe or Qin's blades and you'll be doing far more damage overall, it doesn't balance itself out either. If it was a question of Fatalis letting you attack twice as often and Qin's letting you hit twice as hard - it'd be a tossup. That's not the case though. When you compare the two mathematically, Qin's outdamages it in every single damage test - regardless of how short or long the fight is, regardless of what resistances each party has.
Could you provide the math, please? I would love to see how it adds up. I'm not terrible at math, I just don't have a complete grasp on how stats/percentile works in SMITE yet. (Crit being additive, MS being multiplicative.. etc)
First of all let me state that I'm not at all in favor of Fatalis; I'm just trying to be a engage the discussion.
I do have to say though, that so far there is a lot of talk and random number tossing going around. But with the skimming of the 4 pages so far, I haven't seen a shred of math/proof or even a link to something with that.
I see some random numbers tossed around, like the weird comparison in the OP that really seems to be skewed quite a lot (You say heartseeker gives you 50% extra damage and fatalis only gives you 20% extra attack speed seems like a false example)
I think that a lot of factors are left out of the discussion, that are an important part as well.
1. A lot of gods benefit more than others from the increased attack speed. Fatalis can be decent on a certain gods that either rely on their auto attacks a lot (Think Bakasura / Think the new Loki); or even ones that get secondary benefits through auto attacks (Like Zeus/Cupid).
2. The item is pretty cheap. Comparing Fatalis with an item such as Qin's Blades is not fair if you don't consider you pay almost 50% more for the latter.
3. It's one way to get cooldown reduction. There are alternatives but they aren't always a superior choice. Breastplate of Valor and Jotunn's Wrath may not benefit you as much depending on what you face and which god you picked.
I personally hardly ever use it (mostly because I think the attack speed from Qin's Blades and The Executioner is often enough); however just throwing random numbers (that don't even make sense in the slightest) around really doesn't prove a point.
1. A lot of gods benefit more than others from the increased attack speed. Fatalis can be decent on a certain gods that either rely on their auto attacks a lot (Think Bakasura / Think the new Loki); or even ones that get secondary benefits through auto attacks (Like Zeus/Cupid).
Sure but as we have all said, and yourself, Qin's is better along with Exo. Those 2 are a core for Physical gods right now.
2. The item is pretty cheap. Comparing Fatalis with an item such as Qin's Blades is not fair if you don't consider you pay almost 50% more for the latter.
You pay for what you get, and with Fatalis you get nothing, with Qin's you get everything you need as a Physical carry.
3. It's one way to get cooldown reduction. There are alternatives but they aren't always a superior choice. Breastplate of Valor and Jotunn's Wrath may not benefit you as much depending on what you face and which god you picked.
Physical carries dont need CDR. They are based on auto attacks with skills as back up, unlike a mage who uses skills to kill and auto as back up.
Because the math was asked for twice; Here's the damage calc for Fatalis vs other AS items with Warrior Tabi and a fully stacked Heartseeker in slots 1 and 2:
AS Formula:
AS works off of your base value, and only your base value,
with no added bonus per level.
At level 1, Baka's base AS is 1.02. This is from his base (1)
and his per level bonus (.02). If he buys Fatalis rank 2, (25% AS)
His AS will be 1.27. Formula:
1.02 + (1*.25) = 1.27
_____________________
Baka Level 15, base stats:
PD - 66 + 30 (from his 3) = 96
AS - 1.30
Health - 1625
Tabi + Heartseeker (60 stack) =
PD - 96+30+85 = 211
AS - 1.30 + .06 = 1.36
Health = 1625
Crit = 6% chance
+ Fatalis -
PD - 211
AS - 1.36 + .35 = 1.71
Health = 1625
+ Qin's -
PD - 211 + 30 = 241
AS - 1.36 + .25 = 1.61
Health - 1625 + 150 = 1750
(30% chance to deal 1585*.10 dmg [158])
+ Exe -
PD - 211 + 30 = 241
AS - 1.36 + .20 = 1.56
Health - 1625
(-20 Armor per hit)
+ Ankh -
PD - 211 + 28.875 = 239.875
AS - 1.36 + .15 = 1.51
Health - 1625 + 300 = 1925
Lifesteal 15%
(Gain AD = 1.5% max health [1925*.015 = 28.875)
________________
Damage calc -
Target Wukong lev 15:
Base stats:
HP - 1585
Armor - 58
MR - 45
5 Seconds of Auto Attacks
________________
Fatalis DPS = 352.2
# of attacks - 1.71*5 = 8 attacks @ 6% chance to crit.
For sake of time, we'll say he crits once. (This is overestimating)
Let me just add that the base DPS without any of those extra items is 312 dps, so you can easily see the increases per item.
Now there is no need to argue, because the math is showing us enough. There are some other factors that might skew the stuff here and there, like passive benefits from auto attacking and the cooldown reduction. But with PD also affecting your ability damage, all of those secondary factors move in favor of the PD items anyway.
Not to mention this calculation is actually somewhat in favor of Fatalis; as you get much less benefit from the IAS once you already have some of it. (Diminishing Returns; as going from 7 to 8 attacks is a bigger benefit than going from 12 to 13 attacks in 5 seconds)
Like I said last post, I personally hardly ever use Fatalis, because of the DR and lack of PD; I was merely playing the Devil's Advocate and having the math up earlier would have saved a lot of argumenting over something (apparently) quite obvious.
Let me just add that the base DPS without any of those extra items is 312 dps, so you can easily see the increases per item.
Now there is no need to argue, because the math is showing us enough. There are some other factors that might skew the stuff here and there, like passive benefits from auto attacking and the cooldown reduction. But with PD also affecting your ability damage, all of those secondary factors move in favor of the PD items anyway.
Not to mention this calculation is actually somewhat in favor of Fatalis; as you get much less benefit from the IAS once you already have some of it. (Diminishing Returns; as going from 7 to 8 attacks is a bigger benefit than going from 12 to 13 attacks in 5 seconds)
Like I said last post, I personally hardly ever use Fatalis, because of the DR and lack of PD; I was merely playing the Devil's Advocate and having the math up earlier would have saved a lot of argumenting over something (apparently) quite obvious.
To be fair, playing devil's advocate is not a bad thing to do, and really, It's fine that you did so. It's also fine to want the math. I just didn't have the time to write it all down in a clear format before, but I'd done it and found out Fatalis is worse in nearly every situation outside REALLY WANTING the cooldown. (Because I THINK it out-does Jotuun's and is significantly cheaper)
So I figured I'd do it and post it where people had asked.
As far as my knowledge goes, the only god that I can really see Fatalis to be good on, is Loki.
And this also only when there arent many tanks or just when you don't need physical power anymore. His Ultimate has just such a high cooldown and also +35% attack speed and +10% Movement speed, also can't be wrong. If you are playing against people with not much experience this is an okay item, but if you play Fatalis against professionals you are gonna have a bad time.
Thank you for posting your math - I like theory crafting but I found no formulas for smite.
Would be great if you share your source.
The way AS works is unexpected.
I have some comments to your math
1.) I think to compare the pure damage of an item with +10% movement speed and 20% cool down reduction is not really fair. Following this path I could also add Witch Stone to the discussion and say it's a poor item.
2.) 5 sec is unfavorable for Fatalis - doesn't matter to have 20% or 35% AS
3.) One crit hit independent on 7 or 8 hits is not good. Better you ignore crit chance - it's *1.06 for each item
If I take your numbers on a 3 sec (also not compare able but to get the picture) combat and evaluate DpS/Gold:
The Executioner: 0.159 DpS/Gold & -60 Physical Protection debuff
Ankh of the Golem: 0.14 DpS/Gold & 30 Physical Protection and 300 Health
Qin's Blades: 0.1284 DpS/Gold & 150 Health
Fatalis: 0.159 DpS/Gold & 10% movement speed and 20% cool down reduction
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