Dissecting Smite #1: Oversexualization, Stereotyping, Double-Standards, and Other Misogyny in Smite :: Page 7

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wrote:

I like this post, it's a great topic for debate Sub, but I think some people might take it a little too far.

Well, it's not exactly an easy topic to talk about.

wrote:

Snip

Enough of this! Why do people think that misogyny equals hate? It's not! Do you think that every slaveowner hated every black person to be born? You think that every single bit of discrimination on this planet is fueled by hate? You think that when people blame rape victims, they're doing so because they hate the one being raped?

It's not hate. It's discrimination. They are not the same thing. As for who I'm talking to, it's the people on this site who seem to not think that this is a thing. Yeah, people like you, too, who think that it's something harmless or inconsequential.

It sounds ridiculous, when you condense my post into "HiRez hates women." That's because that statement IS ridiculous, AND THAT IS NOT MY STATEMENT. I suggest you both google misogyny and discrimination, and reread the thing.

Also, the thing with you was a joke. Just like it was with Ferrum. And MadDanny. And like Ferrum asked me to, I took it off (the one with him in it, at least.) Seriously, it's a bloody joke.

Edit: Actually, misogyny CAN be hate against women, since hate is certainly a form of discrimination, but as an umbrella term, that's only a small part of it. When people refer to misogyny in the 21st century, they're talking about prejudice and discrimination.

Stop thinking that there's some form of ultimate evil that's not anywhere near you. That's the stuff of fantasy and fiction. Real life has mass produced, cheap sin that's right next to you.

wrote:

I don't really understand why people need to argue this so much. There is a ridiculous lack of diversity in female character design. Just go into the game and compare the male and female characters. The male characters can be fat, skinny, muscular, or some crazy monster (like Fenrir or Kuku). What do we get with female gods? Perfect body, tiny waist and big tits.

Exactly. I do not get this attitude at all. Clearly, we can see there's a lack of equality, and like TT said, you don't have to look at the lore or anything else to understand that. And yet, we get people who actively defend this.

wrote:

awww I wanted to be quoted

Sorry, but I couldn't find anything on the issue that was very quotable.

wrote:

Nox taunt animation if some of you are too lazy to check in-game:

gif removed for my sanity's sake

THEY LITERALLY HAVE HER HOLD HER TITS AND SHAKE THEM.

**** HIREZ.

wrote:

Misogyny is the hatred of women. I heavily doubt that Hi-Rez hate women.

I think the problem, as was said in the cubits video, isn;t with the sexeualisation but rather with the lack of variety in design choices. Interestingly enough you may realise that in 2014 the sexual level has increased.

I put this down to Tencent. In China women are basically viewed as sex toys (hell, some parents discard their female children at birth to make sure their one child leads a good life) and as such releasing less sexual gods wouldn't be viewed well over there hence why the redid Nu Wa and plunged Chang'e top more in the Chinese client.

But either way I don't have too much of a problem. Because, surprise surprise, these women aren't even real. No one is being oppressed, hated or otherwise mocked in the creation of a video game character unless they are of a certain stereotype for example how Jinx was viewed as mocking African Americans or how in the development of Xenoblade they changed the food delivery by a woman from a curry to avoid sexual stereotypes.

My only real design problems in terms of the females lie with Awilix (only the jiggle physics for god's sake), Nox with her elegant design and huge coconuts and then somewhat Neith who I think would look better in a dress.

I personally love bastet's design these days as while it does show midriff it keeps relatively modest and of course the way that Chang'e is done.

If anything were to be done (even though it couldn;t because someone would throw in their ten cents....) then I would cover up Neith, make Nox look more regal and maybe give arachne some spidery armour. Either way the post was well done even if I think it's a bit blown out of proportion.

To add to my previous reply to this, a lack of variety is also a problem, as I mentioned in the OP.

Lack of variety = lack of diversity = unequal representation = 90% of women in Smite are obsessed with looking sexy.

Do 90% of women in real life want to look sexy, even if they're not in combat?

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I think one of the bigger issues is that the game isn't labeled as a sexually explicit game... Like Sub said, 27.8% of the characters are female. Out of all of those. They are all sexualized. A lot. I could masturbate to that **** with as much pleasure as any porno I've ever seen, but it's okay for 13 year olds to play it?

If I was 13 playing this game. I would want every sexualized skin ever(all of them). For the eye candy and that is okay with people's parents. I don't think hundreds of thousands of kids have access, or better yet play sex based games on a daily basis. What is the difference in Smite?

We have as close to naked characters? Yep
Sexual voice lines? Mhmmm
More sexual dances, movements, taunts, and things of the such? Yep

The only thing we really are missing from this game being a full on Hentai war game with snakes and spiders ****ing each other is the half centimeter from nudity.

This **** is advertised too.... EVERYWHERE....

I got the Smite ads with half naked godesses on my Facebook, Youtube, and pretty much everywhere that has ads well before I started playing Smite... Then there are the misleading not sexual ads that draw kids in as well. I mean the ****ing tutorial is a woman in lingerie jumping around with Double D's acting like she would **** you if she was real....

If you are going to make a game where all the women are sex toys. Then make the game require some age appropriateness.... Make it be for 18+, put it in your ads, warn parents. Do all of those things. Then will it be okay....

That is my real issue with the oversexualization.

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Well, I guess I'll do the whole "reply in portions" thing, if that makes it easier.

wrote:

Well, it's not exactly an easy topic to talk about

It's not an easy thing to talk about because the actual problem, in most people's minds, is extremely minimal. Most Smite players are too busy keeping up with the meta, analyzing the new gods, etc. to be worried about oversexualization.

Me personally, call me all the names you want, it's a problem that's on the far back of my mind when I play Smite. I'm too busy PLAYING SMITE to worry about it. I mean, I guess it's a good cause, but to most people, there are many priorities before the sexualization issue.

wrote:

Enough of this! Why do people think that misogyny equals hate? It's not! Do you think that every slaveowner hated every black person to be born? You think that every single bit of discrimination on this planet is fueled by hate? You think that when people blame rape victims, they're doing so because they hate the one being raped?

It's not hate. It's discrimination. They are not the same thing. As for who I'm talking to, it's the people on this site who seem to not think that this is a thing. Yeah, people like you, too, who think that it's something harmless or inconsequential.

It sounds ridiculous, when you condense my post into "HiRez hates women." That's because that statement IS ridiculous, AND THAT IS NOT MY STATEMENT. I suggest you both google misogyny and discrimination, and reread the thing.

Also, the thing with you was a joke. Just like it was with Ferrum. And MadDanny. And like Ferrum asked me to, I took it off (the one with him in it, at least.) Seriously, it's a bloody joke.

Edit: Actually, misogyny CAN be hate against women, since hate is certainly a form of discrimination, but as an umbrella term, that's only a small part of it. When people refer to misogyny in the 21st century, they're talking about prejudice and discrimination.

Stop thinking that there's some form of ultimate evil that's not anywhere near you. That's the stuff of fantasy and fiction. Real life has mass produced, cheap sin that's right next to you.

So what is your goal? To convince everyone that you're RIGHT? I think we all KNOW that Hi-Rez makes the goddesses way more sexual than they need to be. I don't think you'll find a single person on the site that would disagree with that. However, if I read your post correctly, you want people to understand it as a bigger issue than what most people see it as? Well, like I said above, most people are too busy actually playing the game to be worried about it. There's nothing wrong with that, they aren't SUPPORTING sexualization of female goddesses (And don't give me the whole "well if you aren't part of the solution you're part of the problem" ******** cause I've debunked that logical fallacy a billion times over), they just are indifferent about it.

So if your goal is to convince people NOT to be indifferent about it... well, you've sort of shot yourself in the foot there Sub, because you ALSO argue about actual game design, balance, kit, meta, all that stuff. And to most people, they care more about the actual game balance and such than this issue.

wrote:

Like I said, I don't think anyone is actually defending sexualization of goddesses, I just think some people care more about it than others. Don't think I'm defending it, cause I'm not. I'm just trying to see where you're coming from, and also, trying to show you where the rest of us (well, at least I) are coming from.

wrote:

Lack of variety = lack of diversity = unequal representation = 90% of women in Smite are obsessed with looking sexy.

I don't think that's extremely accurate there, er...

Lack of Variety DOES equal Lack of Diversity, because they are literally synonyms for each other.

Lack of Diversity equals unequal representation? Not always. What if there was a lack of diversity on both sides? What if EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER in Smite was sexualized, even the males? No diversity, equal representation.

Unequal representation = 90% of women looking sexy.

Those two are completely unrelated. That's like saying

Subzero not liking Dacoqrs = Chiulin masturbating to Nu Wa

Like, what the hell?

If you decide to reply to this post Sub, please do it in a format like I did, so that way it is easy for us all to read. You usually do but, eh, just making sure.

wrote:

Snip snip snip, snipity ****ING SNIP (idk, I'm too lazy to copy and paste at this point. My hands almost hurt from writing this post.)

Yeah, you're right, it is a little too much for kids that are 13 and under. Good point.

Although the most redeeming line of that entire post is..

wrote:

I could masturbate to that **** with as much pleasure as any porno I've ever seen

I think that may have been the best thing I've ever read on this site.

Stop it though, you're giving me bad ideas. :P

(JUST ****ING JOKING, DON'T SHOOT ME)

Thanks to Ferrum for making the sig pic! He's beast af people.
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Welp at least they don't portray women as stick figures (which seems to be a prevalent issue at the moment), all the goddess's look healthy and filled in. Also, the way I look at it, most women look very sexual if they are a) very healthy, and b) lacking clothes.

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wrote:

The thing is, is that these are completely unrelated except for their connection with Smite. Smite's gameplay has nothing to do with its sexism - any more than a book's pages have to do with its words. Yeah, the words are expressed on the pages, but no one is going to criticize the paper quality when talking about the book's message.

wrote:

Yeah, the point was to bring this up as an issue, and I don't think talking about gameplay changes anything, because as I said, they're unrelated issues. Talking about the gameplay shouldn't do anything to the conversation about misogyny, because they're only tangentially related.

And the funny part is, not being part of the solution, in this case, IS part of the problem. A ton of problems in the world can be solved, if people didn't shrug and let it pass on by. It's like littering. Part of the problem, isn't just how people just dump stuff on the ground, but also how people don't pick things up. They just walk on by. Even if they're not actively dumping things on the ground, not cleaning up is still a problem - it's not like the trash will clean itself.

Or another example: Intentionally spreading malaria is bad, but unintentional carriers must be quarantined with the rest of them. It's only when they agree to take the procedures to not spread the infection, that it's okay.

Again, I have to stress that this isn't gameplay we're talking about here. The problem isn't people being too busy playing the game to notice - you said it yourself, all of us know that there is a ton of sexualization in this game. Yes, the problem is people who notice it thinking it's okay, or "acceptable evil," not worrying about it, etc. And correcting that is the point of the thread.

Being apathetic to sexism doesn't have anything to do with the gameplay. It's this apathy that's a problem. So no, it's NOT fine, to notice sexism and then just brush it off. It's not fine at all.

wrote:

I think I addressed this in the previous section of this post. The problem isn't people defending sexism itself, the problem is people defending how it's not a problem, as well as people in general being apathetic about it.

wrote:

Lack of diversity doesn't equal unequal representation ONLY if the group you're representing isn't diverse. People are complaining about the whitewashed cast of Exodus because real life Egyptians weren't mostly white. Likewise, in Smite, the lack of diversity for women means unequal representation for women because women in real life are just as diverse as men, but men in Smite are far more diverse.

Uh...yes, everyone being sexualized would be equal repesentation, but what on earth was the point of pointing that out? That's like the complete opposite of the problem presented. And it doesn't change how Smite's women aren't being represented fairly.

wrote:

Unequal representation = 90% of women looking sexy.

Those two are completely unrelated. That's like saying

Subzero not liking Dacoqrs = Chiulin masturbating to Nu Wa

How is that unrelated?

It's a fact that Smite's females aren't diverse, and aren't represented equally as men. This is because 90% of the goddesses are shown as sex-obsessed airheads, regardless of marital status or occupation.

The relationship between the two statements are effect and cause. I made a slight error in terms, but that is hardly unrelated.

wrote:

You don't find any fault with how women are mostly strippers while the men are balanced and diverse? That as you said, "women are treated as sex toys?"

I'm probably shoving words in your mouth, but I think that if you found it a problem, you'd have mentioned it. After all, you said that only the age inappropriateness is the "real issue."

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I'm putting this in a separate post to emphasize its importance.

Sexism and gameplay are two different things. Just because you play the game, doesn't mean you can't worry about the misogyny in it.

And "worrying about the game too much to worry about the sexism" is no excuse. It's less "worry about the game" and more "distracting yourself" or "ignoring." You think people were too worried about getting food to protest about slave labor? Or to scale it down, you think people are too worried about their dog's stomach problems to protest about animal cruelty?

I noticed it, way back even when I was a Smite fan. And I DID do something about it. If I could do something in the middle of writing half a dozen guides and grinding ranked, then everyone can do it while just playing Smite casually.

You could bury yourself in a dozen distractions, Smite's gameplay being one of them, or simply ignore the issue, but it's still an issue, and this apathy is still a problem, and being "distracted" by the game is no excuse.

Edit: Oh, and even if you remain silent about it, you're basically telling game developers that "sexism is okay! We don't care, keep doing it, because it'll keep giving you cash without consequence!" The problem is that as long as no one makes a fuss, HiRez and other companies see sexism as a good thing.

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wrote:

You're absolutely correct here, but the fact that is is connected to Smite means that in one's mental priority list, it's all under the same priority list to them. And most people would rather see balancing changes than a huge sweeping art design change.

wrote:

Yeah, the point was to bring this up as an issue, and I don't think talking about gameplay changes anything, because as I said, they're unrelated issues. Talking about the gameplay shouldn't do anything to the conversation about misogyny, because they're only tangentially related.

And the funny part is, not being part of the solution, in this case, IS part of the problem. A ton of problems in the world can be solved, if people didn't shrug and let it pass on by. It's like littering. Part of the problem, isn't just how people just dump stuff on the ground, but also how people don't pick things up. They just walk on by. Even if they're not actively dumping things on the ground, not cleaning up is still a problem - it's not like the trash will clean itself.

Again, I have to stress that this isn't gameplay we're talking about here. The problem isn't people being too busy playing the game to notice - you said it yourself, all of us know that there is a ton of sexualization in this game. Yes, the problem is people who notice it thinking it's okay, or "acceptable evil," not worrying about it, etc. And correcting that is the point of the thread.

Being apathetic to sexism doesn't have anything to do with the gameplay. It's this apathy that's a problem.

I'm not going to comment on the whole "if you're not a solution, you're a problem" thing, because that pisses me off beyond end and it would go off topic to explain why.

I think where we disagree is on the whole apathy part. You seem to think people think that it's totally not a problem, and I disagree. I think people know that it's a problem, but not ENOUGH of a problem to take away time that could be spent balancing gods on redoing every single goddesses art, voicepack, cards, etc.

I would think you too would understand this, considering how critical you are of the game's balancing issues. Wouldn't you rather see them fix balancing issues than worry about oversexualization?

wrote:

I think I addressed this in the previous section of this post. The problem isn't people defending sexism itself, the problem is people defending how it's not a problem, as well as people in general being apathetic about it.

Well, I don't know what to say to this. I see where you're coming from, but I don't think you'll succeed.

wrote:

I liked your argument, and how you presented it, but then you did this.

This post comes off as arrogant, forceful, and is pushing people away from you. Like I said, I thought this was civilized, but you're pushing me away.

It's a time thing. Most people would rather see Hi-Rez balancing the game than worrying about oversexualization.

This is where you're ****ing wrong:

wrote:

Oh, and even if you remain silent about it, you're basically telling game developers that "sexism is okay! We don't care, keep doing it, because it'll keep giving you cash without consequence!"

It's condescending and patronizing. Just because someone chooses not to speak on an issue does NOT IN ANY WAY mean that they do not agree with you. That pisses me off beyond end, and if you would like to keep a discussion going, I STRONGLY suggest you refrain from putting words in people's mouths and calling them sexist simply because they choose not to speak.
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Welp here we go again... another post locked. Sigh.

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wrote:

Welp here we go again... another post locked. Sigh.

I'd rather see a thread locked, than have a thread where not talking makes you a sexist.

Thanks to Ferrum for making the sig pic! He's beast af people.
IGN: BestJanusNA
What I'm listening to right now: Derp -Bassjackers

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"Oh, and even if you remain silent about it, you're basically telling game developers that "sexism is okay! We don't care, keep doing it, because it'll keep giving you cash without consequence!""

Sigh. Miscommunication, again.

I'm not calling anyone sexist - or at least, consciously sexist *******s.

When I said the word "telling," I'm talking about the message you give to game developers. Silence is a message. You can send messages without meaning them, just an FYI.

Okay? I'm not calling anyone sexist here. But the message they send out to developers perpetuates sexism. Or in other words, I stand by my statement that apathy is a problem. But I'm not calling everyone who doesn't actively protest a raging misogynist.

Do NOT blow this up as me calling you guys sexist. Don't just on the "Sub is an ***" train just yet, because this is an issue of miscommunication.

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Dissecting Smite #1: Oversexualization, Stereotyping, Double-Standards, and Other Misogyny in Smite

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