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Would also suggest listing the items mentioned in the comments below.
Thebes if you’re going to build it, shouldn’t be built that late, ideally you build it after boots.
E.g Shoes > Thebes > Relic Dagger > Spirit Robe > Mantle > Deso/Estaff > sell boots for whatever.
Another example: Shoes > Thebes > Sovereignty > Void Stone > Pridwen > Mantle. Sell Shoes late for Estaff/Reaver or Divine/Deso.
Also kinda dissapointing that you call yourself a support main and you fail to mention the Hand of the Gods start which is important for 2 reasons. 1. Purple buff invades. 2. Reaching Duo lane in time to hit level 2 without minions dying.
The start for this is: Guardian’s Blessing , Hand of the Gods, 4 Healing Potions.
I know when you ideally build Thebes Kriega, and that's not even that ideal. You are pretty squishy at the beginning until you stack it, in that "ideally", traditional path. Thebes is a good item, whenever but not to late, for my opinion. There have been many people supporting Thebes even as a last item pick before replacing blessing or even replacing blessing with it if I remember correctly.
Thank you a lot for your proposals, personally I prefer Witchblade or Winged before relic dagger. It's all about character and what you like/feels better, and is actually more valuable/tried out in the field. If you pay attention, I chose that path in order to get damage online earlier. That's the point of the flat pen build, and to an extent of the Tanky build. For me Even the support must feel like he can hurt someone and have some fun while playing and fulfilling the guardian role at the same time.
I've expressed myself in other comments in relation to Void. I don't prefer Pridwen to have a place into my buid either. It's my opinion and experience: there are better items to have a place into my build than Void, EStaff, Pridwen. Thinking about it, just Void can be somewhat of a blessing replacement but you sacrifice health - so still indecisive about that.
Man that's harsh, it is my way to go out of the fountain: Chalice and 3 Mana Pots. I've found it the most sustainable and this has led me to better experiences. It's your choice if you want Hand of the Gods. I don't, I don't prefer it either. This is my way Kriega, no need to be pokey. You have helped me a lot in many different builds with your comments on them when I started, thank you.
It is because it's 2600 gold for a mediocre item.
But it's rare. In a ranked match the ideal time to stack it is usually after boots cause you will typically be near the mid lane post-level 5 for a bit, that's if you're actually going to build the item at all and don't plan on skipping it (like the Sov and Oni's rush after boots).
But those items are usually more situational, winged against heavy slows, witchblade against 2/3 + AA heavy character comps (or a AA jungler diving your backline like Kali/Baka). Relic Dagger is generally more applicable in matches.
Going 1 or 2 damage/hybrid items on a support is fine, but it depends on how the build path is and what god you're playing. ***bha isn't like Terra who can get benefit more from damage in teamfight scenarios with her ult with the widespread application with the AoE.
Thinking about it, just Void can be somewhat of a blessing replacement but you sacrifice health - so still indecisive about that.
With the example I gave you get health from Thebes, Sov, Void Stone, which is over enough. Building too much health just makes Reaver and Heartseeker procs more effective, it's why stuff like damage mitigation from Spirit Robe/Oni Hunter's is valued, and Utility like Mantle of Discord passive in the lategame.
But you're sharing this build for other players to see, a mention of it would at least be useful, even if it's not your preference.
The main problem with your build is it seems to follow the same sort of path every match.
Lastly you hardly mention that many situational items, especially Spectral Armor with how common crit ADC builds are at the moment.
But you're sharing this build for other players to see, a mention of it would at least be useful, even if it's not your preference.
I am going to say you're having a slight misconception.
Most build author share 1 build. Or better said 1 playstyle of build, the start often suiting a goal for the build in this case the chalice sustain will make up for the lack of thebes hp5 early. therefore, likely not preferring to grab HoG as this will hurt your early sustain, ending up in more frequent backing/less aggression, or gold income by picking up chalice with the first back.
Demanding/feedback on huge flaws to be corrected most of us are fine, but demanding (which the tone of your comment does but the actual text slightly circumvents it) a mention for another start (or in some cases all the situational items) can make things convoluted for new players.
On top of it if the author follows up on adding it, it can have everyone else demanding all other starts like the upgraded shell start or shoes rush start. Having multi potions instead of mana and for supports this list can go on for a while. Continuing on until either the author decides it's enough or the list of (viable) items is exhausted. The last thing usually ending up in convoluted clutter, making it hard to understand when to grab X over Y.
Sorry to say it however your god builds suffer from the above problem. Being having a convoluted and cluttery feeling for me (the reason you might remember me mentioning: the lack of information of why you want this build that is identical to 3-4 other builds with 1 item being swapped. Lower lvl players won't understand why they would build X over Y most of the times.) Your 2 general guides convey the information a lot better, because of the top part with general notes, selection of cookie cutter builds.
For the same reason of understand-ability probably why Stuke only provides ~12 options instead of all viable situational items or why the community guides often only have 2-3 example builds (per tab).
That's why the Build is Epic, and secret.. it is rare. Try it, maybe you will like it Kriega and it all stacks perfectly.
You said it for Witchblade and Winged. I can add the Movement Speed. You can pick Magis Cloack there. The reason I chose Witchblade or Winged, is to be a good transition from Travelers to getting again some Movement Speed, together with the health, that cooldown, CCR if needed, having those powerful passives as well - we know they come handy a lot of the time. Personally I wouldn't take into account Relic, unless being Ares.
And there you have it, the perfect balance (well you see, nearly).
Tried being a more protections guy, fared better with more health and more protections. My experience.
Being sincere here, for my opinion it doesn't have to get a mention from me if I don't prefer it. Could have mentioned some other things, but wanted to keep it nice, clean and simple - as Epic they are!
You typically want the buffs on the minions in the early game, when they still hit pretty hard.
That said...one situational later-game situation would be pushing an Oni Fury wave, or a fire minion wave...those things are significantly stronger and a pain in the butt to clear comparatively. But that's a bit situational, and you won't see much benefit late-game outside of that.
+85 Magical Power
+40 Physical Protection
+100 Health
+20% Cooldown Reduction
Passive Effect: If there are ally minions around you they gain 20% Max hp and 20% attack speed. Whenever an ally minion dies around you, you gain 5 power per stack up to 6, lasts 15 seconds.
Now, not so much IMO. Granted, the power is quite nice...but when you're not building much pen and your scaling isn't so great, the power is less effective.
This is why it's still best used in Solo, where you're probably going to build a bit more bruiser (depending on god), meaning you'll get multiple items with a bit more power and potential pen.
Shoes of Focus
Stone of Binding
Sovereignty/ Breastplate of Valor
Divine Ruin/ Spear of Desolation
Void Stone
Ethereal Staff
Sell shoes for whatever you want.
Or against a phys solo/phys jungle you could go shoes > breastplate > void etc...
55+30+80+40+90 = 295 (15pen) -overkill
f 30+65 = 95
m 30+60 = 90
h 150+200 = 350
My Ideal pen build:
25+110 = 135 (15pen) -feel good about your output..
f 40+50+40 = 130
m 40+50+60 = 150
h 300+300+300 = 900
(counted just the stats of the items)
Hopefully you are not trolling.
Some things I took away from the discussion, that might be viable as well
1. is this path
Final when no antiheal:
Void - Witchblade - Spirit Robe - Spear - Gauntlet - Midgardian
Again 150 health is not to be thrown easy. So evaluate replacing Talisman with Void.
2.Maybe swaping Thebes with Spirit, but Spirit has that CDR, CCR, those protections instantly, that mitigation - it is good for that period...
I'm very thankful for your proposal thoo! Somehow I want health and protections if you want to know my thoughts, milking every item this way for tanks and maximally 1 item power related, to keep it clean and simple. I don't like much hybrid items. Maybe they are good, I don't have good experience with them and I'm not a big fan.
Your guide says you want to melt Squishies while also being able to tank. So I gave you something that meets that criteria:
*Lots of power
*At least 25 flat penetration (10 from stone of binding and 15 from spear of deso) and % penetration from void stone
*You're not counting ethereal staff's passive
"Protections and health are also present in the build
Well not so much melting, as being able to do reasonable damage (terrifying a bit the squishies, while maintaining the tankiness). The melting part got stuck with us through the discussion here. But after Bran's comment and insights, I will have to try and see more combinations, and how they will fare on the terrain (trial and error). The suggestions here will help in that process for sure.
Physical starts with a p,that's why the f was confusing me. Ty for clarifying
The more health / prots you get, the less effective they become per point, and the more effective things like % pen, % protection reduction, and items like Ethereal Staff, Qin's Sais, and Soul Reaver become against you. This is where things like damage mitigation (which is calculated BEFORE effect of protections) and utility items like MS, anti-heal, E-Staff's health/mana steal, Relic Dagger's reduced relic CD, etc. become more helpful. Granted, you DO have a lot of these types of utility in your build, but I do think there's room for alternative items that have been proposed. And this is where I think Boog's build path is...okay. Not what I'd propose probably...it's hard to ignore what Thebes brings with regard to base prots...it allows you to build more flexibly down the line. And I DO think your Thebes needs to be built earlier, and Spirit Robe is built way too early as well...if you were to switch those spots, I think you'd be in a better spot. Yes, you have an argument for immediate prots / mitigation, CDR, and CCR. My counter-argument is that the laning phase at this point is still fairly slow (usually), which allows you some time to build Thebes stacks, gain a bit of HP5, and get some early health. And while the CCR and stuff is always helpful, it's MORE helpful mid/late game when in teamfights...they'll be more effective to you in those cases, so you don't need to emphasize those stats quite that early.
The swap between Thebes and Spirit, will try that and see, together with the other changes/experiments. I can now say, from that graph, the gate is open - mingling can get to another level (maybe even EStaff gets a place). Will have to see if it translates on the field. Thank you, valuable info and insights!
ph.prots 212
m.prots 198
(just flat calculations, without end of match defense stats)
Don't know but it seems spot on. Just the timing and some swaping maybe. Power is there, Pen yes, health yes, CCR yes, CDR yes, Movement speed yes... More or less spot on with the graph as reference.
For my opinion the graph tells a lot to build in the direction of health and sustain, if capped protections. It also tells a lot to counter builds in relation to AA, Antiheal, CCR, you said it MS. All of these are there. Against crit its there to build Spectral as Kriega mentioned, sometimes Nemean can be viable..
Void for example can fill that blessing space, but health in the other way important and that power.. well in late game you can do without it when have Spear...
Average 50% scaling on ***bha's abilities, so whatever base damage, scaling of 30 power = 15 base damage, after mitigations it's like 11. I don't think that's anything to fret over.
Travelers+Spear = 135/15pen
***bhas 1st ability does 417 damage
Applying the equation to his protections the damage is = 313.5
Travelers+Divine = 105/15pen
***bhas 1st ability does 302.5 damage in this build
Applying the equation to his protections the damage is = 302.25
You are right, 11.25 difference on damage.
The only thing left is, cooldown.. does it burn much...
---
Plus that cooldown burns...
In this case, it's 48 magical prots (assuming squishy with no prots and no aura effects) at level 20, - 15 flat pen = 33 protection.
Now the calculation for damage is as follows:
Damage taken * (100 / (100 + Armor)
You can find the official calcs on The Word of Thoth.
DV-8 and I also created a DPS calculator (more specifically for ADCs) here. That calc to show % mitigated is worked into this spreadsheet, and all you have to do is enter the enemy prots to have it show it.
In this case, let's talk about Groggy Strike, since it's the easiest to calc. Level 20 deals 290 damage + 50% of your magical power. In this case, I'm just going to use your base build providing 135 power. So, base damage is 290 + (135 * 0.5) = 357.5 damage. (for later, keep in mind just subbing divine for deso = 105 power and 342.5 damage)
357.5 * (100 / (100 + 33)) = 268.8 actual damage.
Substituting Divine, this would be 342.5 * (100 / (100 + 33)) = 257.5 actual damage. 11 damage difference.
And just to show, 268.8 / 357.5 = 75.19%, or roughly 25% damage mitigation.
In all honesty you can have plenty of success with quite a variety of build types. I'm sure you do just fine building Deso. I don't think building a full damage item is as worthwhile, but that's me, and I feel that Void Stone's % prot reduction that applies for all magical teammates, or Binding's 10 flat pen that applies for anyone attacking a target you've affected, is a great compromise in still getting reasonable damage (but empowering your teammates).
http://dignitas.gg/articles/blogs/Smite/13397/a-guide-to-physical-penetration-items-in-smite
I am also going to agree with the others that for a support I would not really bother with it as much, mostly because of my support playstyle. A support often tends to be "between" the back and frontline to help keep the back line alive and thus being at a non threatening distance. They rely on their backline and keeping them alive to win fights. That is why you normally don't find a lot of damage items on them.
But like I said that is the difference between going for a bruiser style support (or selfish support) and a tank support (non-selfish support as they need their team). You find the bruiser one suiting your needs better (which is visible in both builds) while I prefer a tank path.
Well I would say, playing and the game has to be somewhat fun, even for the support guarding/defending and also hurting a bit. Otherwise sometimes the role knows to throw you some dullness. Make it Tanky and Make it Fun as well.
There is selfish support if you go deep damage and leave defense to be desired. The builds I feel get you tanky (in the first place, but also aura items there) and a bit damage, 'melting' to a very good extent especially the squishies - handing the kills to the team, and sometimes dealing the final blow. I've been careful to make it primarly tanky, for the team, I believe/felt it on the field. Just be careful until you stack Thebes. Thanks for your input Devampi.
Like I said it's all playstyle preference. I for instance prefer the supper tanky style with loads of control (usually gods like sobek, xing tian). I can have even more fun if my opponent forgets pen and I manage to outdamage them (I find this fun because I should not be allowed to do that and I lose this if I would go a damage route)
I know the graph and I slightly use it, mostly to explain why pen is so important. For most of my builds I will be sitting in the 200-250 territory, although sometimes certain situational effect may push one up. this is a quite common tank mark
The damage items on supports you should be going towards are void stone and ethereal staff (though I'm not too sure how good e staff is on ***ba).
The problem I think is there are Guardian’s that make better use out of flat pen items like Terra.
Otherwise, just go full damage if all you care about it getting kills (not recommend)
Boogiebusted... That's a new one
probably the "better mid 3v3" team are the most influential roles
Again I stress the point of having flat pen (especially against squishies). According to my readings and research into different forms of pen/%protections reduction/%damage reductions, I've found that flat pen is the main stat against squishies. From the shred they were taking, the stats, complaints,... no surprise they removed flat pen from Magis. And personally I feel there is enough power; Travelers (25), Spear (110) = 135 to leverage that pen. I have the other build there giving you 130 power (all mainly defensive items). Played a lot with that build but to my experience I saw I was able to deal much more damage with the flat pen build. I dare to say there is a great difference I felt on the battlefield. I feel there is only one downside to the flat pen build, be careful until you stack Gauntlet - maybe there, one can swap the places of Gauntlet with Midgardian. This is, I think, the only downside you should be careful to manage.
But Stone of Binding is so easily applied, and gives not only you but your teammates 10 flat pen equivalence. Having a low price helps. You would usually consider replacing it late-game.
If you're using Deso for the damage potential, then I get it to a degree, as it comes with decent power and CDR too. But in that concept, and as Gulf mentioned, you've drastically overlooked the early potential of Stone of Binding, which is much more of a team-based damage function rather than just your own.
And here, you also consider how power affects ***bha's damage potential. Take a look at his scalings. They're all fairly low. The meat of his damage is in his base damage, not in building power. Being a tank with high CDR, spamming your CC, and helping them with increased damage potential (Binding), making enemies have less health (Ethereal), and helping them with other things (protection auras, counter items, etc.) are the best way to go. There are plenty of CDR options that Deso doesn't have to be one of them.
That is true, the builds are not entirely team oriented - but again are a lot so. Gauntlet, Talisman, Witchblade... Pestilence, Contagion in a sense. I've found as much health and protection you can get, is better for the team to. Tankier, alive - better than dead and no auras at all. Binding, I said it to Gulf, not sacrificing a place into the build.
I've forgot to mention another downside, it is mana wise. You can get to late late game and be mana hungry sometimes. That's too bad sometimes.
I personally always try to work in one or two items with mana sustain...either BoV with the mana pool, or a couple of MP5 items. Genji's Guard by itself would do it with the 40 MP5. Or, as you have, Traveler's (which I probably won't recommend with the next patch due to the speed reduction) + either Shogun's Kusari or Oni Hunter's Garb would do the trick. Another option, funny enough, is Ethereal Staff as previously mentioned, as it steals 8% of an enemy's max mana.
When I want to get more damage out of ***bha, it wouldn't be through a singular item like Spear of Desolation. It by itself isn't going to do that much to your damage potential, IMO, when the rest of your items have 0 power or pen. But, combine multiple items with bruiser (power / pen + prots) potential, and you'll get better use, IMO. Stone of Binding early isn't exactly "sacrificing" a spot in your build, at least the way I see it. It's a functional early item, similar to other bridge items like Gladiator's Shield, that you consider replacing in the late-game. Add Void Stone and maybe Ethereal Staff to that, and you've got some decent damage potential while still being tanky. And if you REALLY do want to do some more damage and want it to be a full damage item, you can also consider Soul Reaver.
Yeah the second build doesn't have the mana problem.
Its ok, just agree to disagree, I have no good experience with those items, and trust me I've used them all. I read moments ago of combining Estaff with Soul Reaver as a true combo. You can, as for me I feel that, that single item (which you are right - I've picked it while trying to kinda milk it power wise and pen wise, CDR helps) is enough to sacrifice oneself from tanky items. If more not entirely tanky items, I said it on the notes - you lose balance and become a bit weak. That single one item (trying to milk it as much as possible) kinda does the job to balance a lot of things. Price wise is not cheap but not too expensive as well..