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In conclusion, Apollo is a great and viable adc that shines in the late game, but has a bit worse early, he also is one of the best boxers in the game, so use that to your advantage and i hope you can find some success when playing him.
Upcoming guides (The closer it is, the less vauge it will be )
Bird is the word!
Praise ________, your lord and savior!
The guide Prism's been waiting for.]
See ya soon!
-Ducks
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Also, Techno, if you check the Overarching Conquest Guide, ADC section, I currently list 4 hunter builds that are generally in the current meta. Standard crit absolutely uses Qin's Sais.
But if your idea is comparing crit with and without Qin's Sais, let's look at the #s.
First, to provide details of the builds I'm using as examples:
So now, I'm using Apollo as a base, and this is just straight basic attacks, no abilities factored in. I'm also only going to be looking at average DPS based on the "yellow fist" which is basic + crit average. Also, everyone should remember...Ducks says his aim is to do max damage to squishies, more than tanks.
Final builds (without passives being active, e.g. Wind Demon's 20% attack speed increase):
Based on the above, Titan's Bane (just threw that in there just because) is not even in the same picture until you're cresting 220 protection, so that's not really viable across the board.
The 3x crit build on squishies does 3 DPS more against squishies compared to Qin's Sais, which is essentially no difference. However, as enemies build more and more protections, the Qin's build becomes more effective...and that's not even factoring in builds that incorporate way more health items, where including Qin's Sais would shine.
One other thing to keep in mind...there's a lot of buying and selling, and it's important to stay relevant throughout the match. So, even if you'd prefer a 3rd crit item or something else over Qin's Sais, let's look at that stage of the game, where you first pick up Qin's. Using the same enemies, and everything's at level 20, so just looking at differences in items.
Qin's is just a stronger pick for the 5th item.
Okay, that enough maths?
Well, now look what happened. 29 comments, and only 2 votes.
Yes, that's more than enough maths. I like seeing maths, but that's just too much math for me. I'll get to read all this eventually, but right now, my brains are fried from school finals.
Well, now look what happened. 29 comments, and only 2 votes.
Yes, that's more than enough maths. I like seeing maths, but that's just too much math for me. I'll get to read all this eventually, but right now, my brains are fried from school finals.
well, it was mostly focused around one review since im an idiot and i thought he wanted to replace titan's with either qin's or just ditch the ichi.
Now that I see it, I realize that all this conversation should have been in a blog instead of in the comments of this guide.
You should not replace Qin's Sais, but Odysseus' Bow
Since you already have Asi, having 2 items that don't offer any power is lowering your damage.
Here is the result with the same build for Agni, Hercules (Bruiser) and Hercules (Tank)
But using this build
Warrior Tabi / Asi / Qin's Sais / Titan's Bane / Wind Demon / Deathbringer
Sorry I don't know how to post images, so here are the numbers
Against Agni
401 (646 DPS) (5 SK in 2.5s) (beats all the builds you listed)
Against Hercules (bruiser)
295 (475 DPS) (8 SK in 4.3s) (beats all the builds you listed)
Against Hercules (tank)
231 (372 DPS) (12 SK in 6.8s) (beats all the builds you listed)
That is why I suggested Titan's Bane to Ducks, not to replace Qin's Sais, but Odysseus' Bow.
Also, he already has too much attack speed to take maximum benefit of Audacity.
Finally, if we use the build I suggested earlier (to maximize DPS, not to be optimal).
Transcendence / Warrior Tabi / Asi / Rage / Deathbringer / Titan's Bane
You get these numbers
Against Agni
445 (650 DPS) (4 SK in 2.1s) (beats all the builds previously listed)
Against Hercules (bruiser)
319 (466 DPS) (7 SK in 4.1s) (beats all the builds previously listed)
Against Hercules (tank)
246 (359 DPS) (11 SK in 6.8s) (equals to the previous build)
You should not replace Qin's Sais, but Odysseus' Bow
Since you already have Asi, having 2 items that don't offer any power is lowering your damage.
Here is the result with the same build for Agni, Hercules (Bruiser) and Hercules (Tank)
But using this build
Warrior Tabi / Asi / Qin's Sais / Titan's Bane / Wind Demon / Deathbringer
Sorry I don't know how to post images, so here are the numbers
Against Agni
401 (646 DPS) (5 SK in 2.5s) (beats all the builds you listed)
Against Hercules (bruiser)
295 (475 DPS) (8 SK in 4.3s) (beats all the builds you listed)
Against Hercules (tank)
231 (372 DPS) (12 SK in 6.8s) (beats all the builds you listed)
That is why I suggested Titan's Bane to Ducks, not to replace Qin's Sais, but Odysseus' Bow.
Also, he already has too much attack speed to take maximum benefit of Audacity.
Finally, if we use the build I suggested earlier (to maximize DPS, not to be optimal).
Transcendence / Warrior Tabi / Asi / Rage / Deathbringer / Titan's Bane
You get these numbers
Against Agni
445 (650 DPS) (4 SK in 2.1s) (beats all the builds previously listed)
Against Hercules (bruiser)
319 (466 DPS) (7 SK in 4.1s) (beats all the builds previously listed)
Against Hercules (tank)
246 (359 DPS) (11 SK in 6.8s) (equals to the previous build)
Oh, so that's what you suggested to replace, guess i missed the specific item suggestion, that's a good idea actually.
And yeah, I can see Titan's working well, even without the numbers. That said, each different version offers different utility. Rage may provide high #s of crit, but ody gives some team fight potential, wind demon gives some move speed, etc. I'd say they're all viable, but just wanted to show techno that Qin's +crit is absolutely a thing.
Without Wind Demon's passive:
With Wind Demon's passive on:
What are we seeing here? I have to admit I'm amazed, but DPS on squishies (doing true damage from all the pen) is only about 30 DPS less than the full crit. And, against tankier enemies, it gets better and better.
Ducks, thoughts on adding the standard Unicorn as an optional
hometower-wrecking build?Unicorn is a very good option, especially with hunters that have good damaging abilities.
What are we seeing here? I have to admit I'm amazed, but DPS on squishies (doing true damage from all the pen) is only about 30 DPS less than the full crit. And, against tankier enemies, it gets better and better.
Ducks, thoughts on adding the standard Unicorn as an optional
hometower-wrecking build?personally, not that much of a fan, but i will try it out.
i'm not selling for ninja tabi on this build. there's a reason i didnt write all of the swaps.
edit: omg, i kept the old build swaps ;( mb...
not anymore. ccombining them both gives the best dps level, i mean unicorn can still be used separately, but crit without qin's is just a bit less worth it.
Edit: I need reviews tho 0.0
However, I'm pretty sure this build is not optimal for Apollo because late game (with every replacements) you have too much attack speed that you overcap when Audacity is up.
You may have better results by lowering your attack speed and getting a true penetration item, like Titan's Bane or The Executioner.
However, I'm pretty sure this build is not optimal for Apollo because late game (with every replacements) you have too much attack speed that you overcap when Audacity is up.
You may have better results by lowering your attack speed and getting a true penetration item, like Titan's Bane or The Executioner.
well, that statement is pretty outdated.
since The Executioner has been nerfed, reducing base protections on hunters has been a little less efficient, and as Zilbsmeister found out in his earlier year blog, he did more damage to the odin with a crit build without building pen, so base protections can be reduced more but that will just be a bit of a waste instead of going straight up into crit.
i could see the point your making, but replacing Ichaival means less mid boxing and you will have a very hard time boxing the top picks, it's utility is also super useful.
people also tend to forget that Qin's Sais is penetration-ish, meaning that it's helpful against tanks and is also a great help to boxing, so i dont really see what do you want to replace, you can use the vellum build in case their doing like a weird tanky af team.
the reason pen works in a unicorn build is because you need to get the most base damage you can, and pen helps in that.
unfortuantley, i have to go rn so i will provide a better explanation afterwards, there's still a lot i havent covered and i havent showed the winrate rise proof yet, so iil be back and will continue this in detail.
Overcapping attack speed has always and will always reduce your efficiency.
As for The Executioner, I know it has been nerfed, so that Titan's Bane is better (that's why I suggested it first).
However, your build doesn't include any of them, and your damage would be increased if you take any of those.
If you really want attack speed, then The Executioner can be good.
Although it's not as good as Titan's Bane, it's still better than have only 15 flat pen.
As for Zilby's, I didn't read that blog, can you link it please ?
Because I'm sceptical (which is always good) and I would want to test it myself.
Overcapping attack speed has always and will always reduce your efficiency.
As for The Executioner, I know it has been nerfed, so that Titan's Bane is better (that's why I suggested it first).
However, your build doesn't include any of them, and your damage would be increased if you take any of those.
If you really want attack speed, then The Executioner can be good.
Although it's not as good as Titan's Bane, it's still better than have only 15 flat pen.
As for Zilby's, I didn't read that blog, can you link it please ?
Because I'm sceptical (which is always good) and I would want to test it myself.
The thing that's outdated is the pen thing, since you cant reduce base protections as much anymore, and as an adc that needs to target squishies in the backline, getting the normal ichi crits build is just more efficient.
see, the thing is, people buying Ichaival will outbox you early if you dont get it, and having to stack devo's sucks, so people that buy Asi] will outbox you early, so i really dont see a more viable option.
and i will look for the thread.
edit: also, tomorrow me and brans timezones dont clash, so be sure to drop by for a couple of conquest games if you'd like to, the ones we played were fun!
Still though, with a claim of "best dps level", I want to see at least a line graph. Don't make me do the math myself!
Still though, with a claim of "best dps level", I want to see at least a line graph. Don't make me do the math myself!
it's the most viable one since it lets you hold your **** in early.
Using this web site for reference.
If we compare 2 Apollo boxing against the other.
The best build would be
Transcendence
Ninja Tabi
Asi
Rage
Deathbringer
Titan's Bane
Allowing you to get the kill shot in 5 basic attacks in 2.5 sec, in average.
That's because we can't "quantify" most of the item passive.
Like Odysseus' Bow, Golden Bow, Hastened Fatalis, Bloodforge, Transcendence, etc.
However, that build has a poor early game, and it's power spikes are too late.
Going for Unicorn build is better early, and you can always switch to crit late game.
you guessed it!
Therefore the "best DPS build" is not what you would want to aim for anyway.
Also, note that this build is for late game, once you have your full build, you replace up to 3 items to get this.
So, at that time, I don't think clear minions should be an issue, nor that Ichaival
Finally, I compared 2 Apollo to get rid of the kit difference for comparison purpose.
Of course, Hou Yi will almost always win a theoric boxing contest.
And if you play to box Hou Yi, you would avoid crit anyway.
Therefore the "best DPS build" is not what you would want to aim for anyway.
Also, note that this build is for late game, once you have your full build, you replace up to 3 items to get this.
So, at that time, I don't think clear minions should be an issue, nor that Ichaival
Finally, I compared 2 Apollo to get rid of the kit difference for comparison purpose.
Of course, Hou Yi will almost always win a theoric boxing contest.
And if you play to box Hou Yi, you would avoid crit anyway.
its like more of a build that allows apollo to win lane more then box late, shouldn'tve called it the best dps build. and the hou yi example is just a genneral one for meta ability based hunters, you can also take anhur for that fact.
He was asking which build gave the best DPS.
I answered this, based on the sheer numbers (no abilities, passive, aura, debuff, etc involve, only sheer numbers).
This is not the best build and I never said so.
I am in no way defending this build as the one and only build for ADC.
He was asking which build gave the best DPS.
I answered this, based on the sheer numbers (no abilities, passive, aura, debuff, etc involve, only sheer numbers).
This is not the best build and I never said so.
I am in no way defending this build as the one and only build for ADC.
i didnt say you were, and yes, i misunderstood.